XR15

[sandymangina]

OK we seem to have a taker then. Chose your rifle for 200, 300 & 600 and we'll see you at Bisley (these are not SA80s). No bipods remember but you can use a sling in the sitting.

 

Good luck in two weeks, I hope you enjoy the forces as much as I did.

 

Just let me know when you want to meet up and we can get it organised.

 

Sandy

[Wookie]

Martin,

 

I guessed that tartget iron sights are going to be a bit different from the ones on a normal military weapon. I guess it was my fault for assuming that a civilianised version of the AR-15 would have standard iron sights. Lesson learned.

 

Sandy, yes sure, I'd love to shoot at Bisley. I've never shot there and it's been a few years since I picked up anything bigger than a .22. Does Bisley have loaner .223 rifles that I can borrow? I'll check my diary and see when I have a weekend free. Unfortunately I can't make this weekend's open day.

[Dr_Scholl]

It depends on the model.

 

Check out this website. These guys produce some of the most popular AR variants in the U.S. I hope i'm not violating the terms with this.

 

http://www.stagarms.com/

[Agentfunky]

They are standard sight on the AR-15's used in highpower. Although there are some shooters that do use the AR equiped with apeture sights to great effect.

[pbickerd]

To reply to pbickerd's question,

 

I'd firstly have to ask what the inteded use is for the rifle. Are you buying one to because you like the rifle at's looks and fancy shooting one as a plinker at relatively short ranges (some people who collect military style firearms prefer to go for the accurate looks rather than the funcionality of a competition rifle), or are you going to be looking at deriving as much accuracy as possible for the purposes of competition shooting?

 

I've not seen the XR15-M4 in the flesh, as most of the guys who shoot the campetitions we do have had their rifles built to their own specifications with better triggers, barrels, forends etc.

 

From what I've seen of the link you provided, I'd be inclined to check several things including:

 

1) whether or not the barrel is free floating (the forend handguard doesn not exert any forces on the barrel). If the barrel is free floating then the handguard cannot exert any forces on the barrel when using a sling for example or a bipod which might throw your zero out a bit.

 

2) the cocking system you wish to use. A straight pull modification with a machined upper receiver and cocking handle attached directly to the bolt is a very effective method of achieving a reasonable cycle rate and means that the rifle doesnt have to be removed from your cheek like it would with the central cocking system that comes as standard.

 

3) The barrel length.....what do you want to use it for? Fir target work out to 600yds or beyond you would be advised to go for a 20" barrel and a fast twist. I currently have 1:8" and 1:9" twist barrels, the 1:9 suits a 69gn bullet and the 1:8 shots well with a 77gn bullet which gives better accuracy out to longer ranges. For accuracy work I'd also be looking at getting a match barrel and working up an accurate load for reloading purposes.

 

From what I've seen I'd be inclined to speak to Bradley Arms and SGC to see what they can give you for your £1080 as you can get a far more user frinedly and accurate competition rifle for around that price or not much more. I have dealt with both firms and have found the quality of the kit supplied to be exceptionally good. The guy who owns Bradley arms shoots his own rifles in comps and his delivery time is considerably better than SGC in my experience.

 

Either way, happy shopping and I hope you enjoy whichever gun you buy. :look:

 

BTW, Wookie, bring yourself along to Bisley for the next highpower shoot, bring a bipod and a scope as big as you can get, and then shoot in the competition. I guarantee you will be severly outshot by guys who shoot with only a sling and iron sights. It really is a great competition. I've seen it happen.

 

Secondly, my understanding of the law is that in the UK we have the right to own and shoot firearms PROVIDED you can demonstrate a legitimate use for the firearm(s) in question and most importantly you are are a fit and proper person to do so. The FAC is a licence that applies conditions conditions to the aquisition and use of those firearms. Indeed there is a course of appeal available in the event that the relevant authorities believe they have due cause not to issue an FAC to an individual. All this talk about privelidge is not necessarily correct.

 

Having said that, that right can be easily lost should you be regarded at any point as somone who is not a fit and proper person through issues of safety, inapropriate behaviour or physical or mental medical conditions. And justly so.

 

Thanks for that AgentFunky. I am a fairly new shooter so when I initially get the rifle it will just be for a bit of practice shooting but I would like to work my way up to competition shooting eventually. The trainer I have been working with at my local club has told me he is very impressed with my shooting so far and I do feel I am doing pretty well.

 

So to sum it up, I would like to buy something now that will be an investment and that I can grow into as my shooting progresses. I would hate to buy something and end up replacing it in the near future because I made a purchase without really researching it properly.

 

EDIT- Its sounding a bit like a Bradley Arms rifle might be the safest bet..

 

Thanks again for the help all,

-Paul

Edited September 9, 2008 by pbickerd

[casts_by_fly]

In this country, they aren't much more than novelties.

Only if you don't know how to shoot one

 

I should have clarified that a bit. I mean to most shooters in this country they are novelties, i.e. not mainstream firearms and not terribly practical outside of where they are commonly used such as hi-power and practical rifle competition. I don't mean to suggest that they are toys or not serious firearms.

 

 

However, in the states they are very useful tools. In a standard AR platform, you can hunt varmints (prairie dogs, groundhogs, etc), predators (coyotes, fox, etc), and big game all with the same gun by swapping out barrels. If you like to modify your guns with different accessories like handrails, stocks, grips, etc then the AR platform is one of the guns with the most aftermarket accessories available. For practice you can plink with either cheap 223 ammo or buy a 22LR upper and shoot that. Accuracy wise, a good barrel and smooth trigger will keep up with the best bolt hunting rifles.

 

Of course in this country, most of that doesn't apply.

Why not?

 

 

The aftermarket marketplace for gun parts in general in this country is much smaller than in the US. In the US I can ring up MidwayUSA or Brownells and have pretty much any part to my door in short time. Want a handguard or trigger? Take your pick there are TONs to choose from. Those two suppliers not to your liking? Pick another, again there is plenty of choice. Not in stock? Call up the manufacturer and see who does have one that you can order. I don't see the same level of choice in this country. You can get parts, but it takes a lot more work and planning. You can't walk into your local gunshop and walk out with a new stock (unless you have an AR specialist as your local gunshop).

 

In that same order for a trigger above if I wanted to order a new barrel for the gun I could and within a week be shooting game with it. Here, you'd have to get a variation first with all of the associated justification of the cartridge, potential waiting time (based on force), and then on top of that you have to order in the barrel. Part of the attraction of the AR platform is the versatility and ability to have a new gun by swapping parts in and out. You still have that here in this country, but are much more limited because you have to justify each barrel you want. That isn't a criticism of the gun- the gun can still do all of those things. However the shooting environment in this country doesn't support it.

 

 

 

It takes more than a barrel swap to have a new gun on a whim. Variations effectively put an end to that. A semi-auto centerfire is a big no-no. Looks and tradition kill any other opportunities for use. Even if you still wanted one after all of that, they are prohibitively expensive to buy if you "just want to" own one.

 

thanks

rick

 

I agree with the "just to own one" quote but that should be said for all firearms as far as licensing goes. Other than that I see nothing in your argument than pure prejudice probably from ignorance of type than any real facts.

 

The AR platform is extremely versatile even in the 'straight-pull' for for the UK market. It is capable of very good accuracy with iron (as issued) sights. In the high power target discipline I think possibly only a Tubb (a rifle that owes a lot to the AR for styling) has beaten an AR in the championships. ARs regularly (but not always) beat all comers in the PR league and the Sporting Rifle match at the Phoenix has been won on many occasions with an AR. Civilian Service Rifle matches are won the great majority of times by an AR. Sub MOA accuracy is easily achievable.

 

Not bad or a plinker. If it can regularly beat what you might call a 'proper' rifle, then I'll take an AR every time. Do you compete? It is only in competition with all the pressures and demands put upon the shooter and rifle that a rifle's true potential can be judged.

 

Off the range, it is an ideal platform to build a fox rifle, the M4 style is very light, very accurate and mine has taken many foxes where I wouldn't take my 243 'proper' gun. I have just as much trouble from passers by whatever rifle I take out with me. Some people just see 'gun', must be 'nutter' with it, doesn't matter if it's my Sako243, Ruger 10/22, AR M4 style, or even my 12ga.

 

We'll have bad press whatever, we were all found guilty after Dunblane when we were told to keep our heads down and not upset anyone, and look what good that did. The more we hide the more we'll be marginalised and the more the general (non-shooting) public will be ignorant of the facts.

 

 

I'm certainly not against AR style rifles in any way. My last sentence of my originally typed post (which I deleted to shorten the post) was that I want to get one at some point when I get back to the states. You'll also note that in the quote material above I say that with a good trigger and barrel they will hang with custom bolt guns. You don't need to sell me on the virtues of the guns as I'm sold already.

 

My point in posting is that for most people in this country, an AR style rifle is not a practical choice. First, they are cost prohibitive for the mass market. Considering how many inexpensive guns are available that shoot better than most shooters can do (CZ and Tikka come to mind), not many people are going to drop £1000 just to start on the gun. So you are starting with a smaller market. Then you have the mentality of most shooters in this country that a rifle is a bolt gun and a shotgun is a double. Period. End of story. Full stop. Black rifles are for military purposes and are made to kill people, not animals. Only nutjobs want a black rifle and anyone with a black rifle must be a little crazy or extreme. There is no place for a black rifle in the field. Like it or not, that is the mentality of too many shooters in this country. When that is the case, a black rifle will never be popular and regularly accepted. I'm not saying that it is right, and I certainly don't agree with it. But it does influence what people will and will not buy. Forced to buy either a wood stocked bolt gun or a straight pull AR, most people will take the bolt gun because of the image. Lastly, even if someone gets over the high price tag and the image, there isn't a clear advantage of the AR over a bolt gun here. Accuracy wise the shooter and the ammo they feed the gun will be more limiting than the gun. A straight pull doesn't have the autoloading benefit for a quick followup shot (though a straight pull will be a bit faster than a bolt for most guys). They are short and compact guns but you can get bolt guns the same.

 

There isn't a clear 'buy me instead' for AR guns over a bolt gun with the downside of price. For that reason they will never be popular here and rarely accepted. Even in the US there are some (though many fewer) who would agree that black rifles have no place in the sporting field. Jim Zumbo (very famous outdoor writer) recently wrote his blog post calling for a ban on AR/AK style rifles in the field. Of course the reaction to his comments was swift and severe from the sporting community.

 

Of course the biggest exception to the rule is competition such as hi-power, service rifle, and practical rifle competitions. Anytime you need fast and accurate shooting the AR will do very well. But as a main selling point there are other factors that will weight more heavily in a UK shooters mind that will force him or her to choose another rifle.

 

Thanks,

Rick

Edited September 9, 2008 by casts_by_fly

[Dunkield]

This subject seems to be a good way of smoking out new members who must have been lurking in the wings :look:

 

Now, which is best .177 or .22

[Agentfunky]

To reply to pbickerd's question,

 

I'd firstly have to ask what the inteded use is for the rifle. Are you buying one to because you like the rifle at's looks and fancy shooting one as a plinker at relatively short ranges (some people who collect military style firearms prefer to go for the accurate looks rather than the funcionality of a competition rifle), or are you going to be looking at deriving as much accuracy as possible for the purposes of competition shooting?

 

I've not seen the XR15-M4 in the flesh, as most of the guys who shoot the campetitions we do have had their rifles built to their own specifications with better triggers, barrels, forends etc.

 

From what I've seen of the link you provided, I'd be inclined to check several things including:

 

1) whether or not the barrel is free floating (the forend handguard doesn not exert any forces on the barrel). If the barrel is free floating then the handguard cannot exert any forces on the barrel when using a sling for example or a bipod which might throw your zero out a bit.

 

2) the cocking system you wish to use. A straight pull modification with a machined upper receiver and cocking handle attached directly to the bolt is a very effective method of achieving a reasonable cycle rate and means that the rifle doesnt have to be removed from your cheek like it would with the central cocking system that comes as standard.

 

3) The barrel length.....what do you want to use it for? Fir target work out to 600yds or beyond you would be advised to go for a 20" barrel and a fast twist. I currently have 1:8" and 1:9" twist barrels, the 1:9 suits a 69gn bullet and the 1:8 shots well with a 77gn bullet which gives better accuracy out to longer ranges. For accuracy work I'd also be looking at getting a match barrel and working up an accurate load for reloading purposes.

 

From what I've seen I'd be inclined to speak to Bradley Arms and SGC to see what they can give you for your £1080 as you can get a far more user frinedly and accurate competition rifle for around that price or not much more. I have dealt with both firms and have found the quality of the kit supplied to be exceptionally good. The guy who owns Bradley arms shoots his own rifles in comps and his delivery time is considerably better than SGC in my experience.

 

Either way, happy shopping and I hope you enjoy whichever gun you buy. :look:

 

BTW, Wookie, bring yourself along to Bisley for the next highpower shoot, bring a bipod and a scope as big as you can get, and then shoot in the competition. I guarantee you will be severly outshot by guys who shoot with only a sling and iron sights. It really is a great competition. I've seen it happen.

 

Secondly, my understanding of the law is that in the UK we have the right to own and shoot firearms PROVIDED you can demonstrate a legitimate use for the firearm(s) in question and most importantly you are are a fit and proper person to do so. The FAC is a licence that applies conditions conditions to the aquisition and use of those firearms. Indeed there is a course of appeal available in the event that the relevant authorities believe they have due cause not to issue an FAC to an individual. All this talk about privelidge is not necessarily correct.

 

Having said that, that right can be easily lost should you be regarded at any point as somone who is not a fit and proper person through issues of safety, inapropriate behaviour or physical or mental medical conditions. And justly so.

 

Thanks for that AgentFunky. I am a fairly new shooter so when I initially get the rifle it will just be for a bit of practice shooting but I would like to work my way up to competition shooting eventually. The trainer I have been working with at my local club has told me he is very impressed with my shooting so far and I do feel I am doing pretty well.

 

So to sum it up, I would like to buy something now that will be an investment and that I can grow into as my shooting progresses. I would hate to buy something and end up replacing it in the near future because I made a purchase without really researching it properly.

 

EDIT- Its sounding a bit like a Bradley Arms rifle might be the safest bet..

 

Thanks again for the help all,

-Paul

 

 

No problems Paul.

 

I'd agree that it's far better to invest in good kit to start with. Plenty of research, listen to people who shoot the rifles in competition and speak to the gun-plumbers who build the rifles. You are bound to find differences of opinion on certain aspects but the overall impression you get from shooters who do use the rifles regularly should help you find the best route to take.

 

From what you have said, if I was in your shoes I would deffinitely go down thre route of at least contacting one of the gun-plumbers who can build you a custom AR of your choice. They will be able to offer you the best option for what you want to shoot and advise you of upgrades and after market parts that will enable you to stay competitive.

 

Depending on where you live, you should be able to get to a club and see the rifles in action, and if you have an FAC and are signed in as a visitor the RO's may be happy for you to try the rifle you like. I've allowed FAC holders who are interested in the AR15 to shoot mine at club ranges.....it makes sense to try before you buy.

 

Where are you located (approximately)?

Edited September 9, 2008 by Agentfunky

[Agentfunky]

This subject seems to be a good way of smoking out new members who must have been lurking in the wings :look:

 

Now, which is best .177 or .22

 

 

 

Now you're opening a can of worms

[pbickerd]

Agent Funky - I'm based in Coventry

 

I normally shoot at Wedgnock (who only allow rimfire and pistol calibers) and am looking for another club to join.

 

I'm going to contact Kingsbury Club as I believe they shoot on a military range, either that or maybe offas dyke. Not sure which way to play it yet.

 

Thanks again for the advice,

Paul

[Agentfunky]

Agent Funky - I'm based in Coventry

 

I normally shoot at Wedgnock (who only allow rimfire and pistol calibers) and am looking for another club to join.

 

I'm going to contact Kingsbury Club as I believe they shoot on a military range, either that or maybe offas dyke. Not sure which way to play it yet.

 

Thanks again for the advice,

Paul

 

 

Righto,

 

I'm up in the North West and shoot at several clubs around there including Diggle Range where there is a reasonable representation from the Practical Rifle crowd, as well as F-TR, Benchrest (100, 300, 600 and 1000yd ranges.) Military Rifle, Tactical Rifle, McQueens etc...... as well as black powder stuff and other disciplines that don't really hold much attraction for me personally.

 

If you get an AR be sure to head up and see us for a shoot. There is some basic accomodation in the bunkhouse, a B&B closeby and nearby pubs and restaurants. We do 8-10 practical rifle shoots a year at ranges up to 600yds and there's a lot of people who would be willing to help you get started in the comp circuit. Practical shotgun is also a good event up there, espscially if you have a high capacity shotgun.

 

Enjoy

[Breastman]

Bored at work and been reading through some old threads, this one made me sad :(

 

No wonder we lost pistols in '97. Seems like the old silo/as-long-as-its-not-my-guns attitude of different shooting disciplines hasn't changed at all.

 

pbickerd, have you decided/bought a rifle yet? If so let us know how you're getting on with it! I used to have 2 SGC AR-15's, one in .22lr and one .223, just recently sold them as fancied a change. Bought a Steyr AUG Z SP which i use mainly on the range but also for foxes when i get the chance (just throw on some scrim netting and local foliage to camoflauge the easily identifiable all black colouring and to keep the hand-wringers happy!) and a GSG-5 purely as a range fun-gun. I would use it for rabbits but not found a suitable moderator for it yet.

 

Went home for lunch halfway through writing this and found the new Gunmart waiting, spookily enough theres a supplement in it covering the types of guns discussed here aswell as all of the other type of 'unsuitable' guns the walnut 'n' blued brigade don't like, well worth a read. Especially the foreword for the people on here who have expressed negative opinions.

 

Mark

[pbickerd]

Hey Breastman,

 

You are right, it is sad that some shooters have a problem wth 'military style' weapons.

 

I gave up on getting an AR15 style rifle. I looked into getting one in .22lr done by Mark Bradley but he has a large backlog at the moment it seems so I decided to leave it.

 

Instead I change direction completely and bought a Marlin 1894 in .357

 

I still do want an AR15 style but I think I am going to wait. Its a shame there are so few sources of them over here..

 

-Paul

[Breastman]

I've had an 1894 and they're great fun too! Was the only gun i majorly (nicely made up word there ) regret selling. And the only 'wooden' gun i've managed to get away with. (Personal choice)

 

Have you also tried Matt Greenall of AR-15.co.uk (PM me if you want his phone numbers)? He did all the work on my AR-15's when Bob from SGC was too stowed off, and did an excellent job to boot!

 

Mark

[pbickerd]

Thanks Breastman.

 

I will get back to you on that. I have spent all my 'gun money' for now When I have some more I will msg you.

 

With Christmas coming up though that might be a while !

[Breastman]

Whey its the best time of the year to ask for it! Of course i don't think your FEO would be impressed if it was stored in a stocking on the mantlepiece over night! !

[masterzone2]

Hi I have said many times that many (I can quote this) shoot better with AR15/MP5 style rifle.

If this is the case for you then you owe it to yourself and your sport/hobby to get one just to get that better shot/grouping

as for shooting on fields you could use them with some common sense.

Example a place where I could use my rifles/shotguns for rat/rabbit shooting HAS NO PUBLIC foot paths on it at all

so for a place like that in the middle of 20+ acres any one who is there is there with out permission (remember I said It has NO public foot paths) so somewhere like there would be fine as the dog walker shouldn't be there.

but then Joe public see any firearm-I had one woman warn me there was a man with a gun in a pizza take out.

Turned out to be and armed traffic copper.