Advice on Listed Buildings

[Dirty Harry]

I will be moving into a grade II listed house in the next few months.

It's is need of a bit of modernising.

I want to install some new windows, rewire the place and sort out some of the floors.

Does anyone have any experience getting planning to put new windows into a listed building?

Also does anyone have any idea how much 12 custom made wooden windows (not to big) would cost?

 

Cheers

Harry

[Fleabag]

If your proposal would preserve the architecture, history and setting of the building.Then you would probably get planning permission granted. However the council planning department will want to see samples of your proposed timber windows and also all other materials before granting your application. good luck with your new house.

[Plumbob]

I expect you already know but if you have work carried out the vat is zero rated or charged at a lower rate depending on the listing.

[Baldrick]

Yes, I've had to obtain Listed Building Consent for repairs/improvements on a variety of properties. It's not a chore, although the 8-week turnaround time and the mountain of paperwork needed might irritate you. Plumbob's point about the VAT benefits is spot-on. You'll typically need to instruct an architect or building surveyor to produce the drawings needed for the application. Assuming the window replacement is like-for-like, you'll very probably get your consent.

 

Martincavie is probably the most knowledgeable chap on here about specialist joinery, if you wanted a ball-park figure for windows.

[al4x]

Ok I'm going through a lot of this at the moment so have to say have gained a bit of experience.

 

The planning side can be a nightmare and depends how good your listed officer is, I'm renovating a house at the moment and the parts that need the work were built in the 20's so you'd have thought they would be a bit more lenient well they aren't. They make you jump through every hoop possible and then some.

 

Firstly you will need to find a supplier for the windows try and find one of the larger ones who will be able to do all the drawings / sections that you will need to include with the listed application, as a guide I've got some replica georgian wood windows going in that I've got permission to be double glazed and for a 1200 x 1200 window its about £650 plus vat for one that comes fully glazed and painted. If you are doing work to a Listed building and it hasn't been butchered and had double glazing added in the past then you may be restricted to single only and believe it or not you still need permission for secondary Glazing.

Depending on the condition of the windows it may be possible to get a Joiner to repair them sufficiently in which case you don't need permission as you are just undertaking a repair.

With your wiring etc I'd not tell them as you are replacing existing wiring and generally what they don't know doesn't hurt them. I've found the more open you are the more they try and make your life difficult.

 

Floor wise be careful, depending what you have at the moment there are a few issues such as old houses not having damp proof courses and needing to breathe hence the use of Lime render etc sometimes builders throw in a concrete slab which alters all the loadings on a house that usually has really shallow foundations, then the damp just sits in the walls and will rise. Generally its great living in an old house but you need to read arround the subject a bit and get a mix between the approach a modern builder will use and the techniques used orriginally and why they were used, as mixing the two needs to be done carefully to have no repercussions.

 

This is the front of my one, which has all been knocked out in the past and is one room

 

 

Used to be the Village hall and has 2 inglenooks and Oak panelling all round. Makes for a great party room

 

 

and then there is this on the back which is where all the work is going on!!

 

[jimmyk]

I used to live in a Grade II listed building until last September and would echo what others have said.

 

We replaced all of the windows in our mid-terrace cottage and the Council were OK so long as the work was genuinely "like for like". We had a much more modern (1960's) kitchen extension out the back and sought to replace the old rotten wooden windows with double glazed uPVC. We got knocked back although the Council did accept (reluctantly) a change to double glazed.

 

In the older C17th part of the building the box sash windows had to be an exact replica of the originals as far as possible - no double glazing and all dimensions the same right down to the width of the glazing bars.

 

My advice would be to hire a good architect who has worked on listed buildings in the local area and knows the people at the council planning department. It goes without saying that you should be nice to the Conservation/Planning officer who comes out to have a look at the work - if you are stroppy or argumentative with them they can make life very difficult indeed.

[tulkyuk]

My advice would be to hire a good architect who has worked on listed buildings in the local area and knows the people at the council planning department. It goes without saying that you should be nice to the Conservation/Planning officer who comes out to have a look at the work - if you are stroppy or argumentative with them they can make life very difficult indeed.

 

This is the best advice you've been given so far - I work as an Architectural consultant and its hard work if you upset the planning officer, best to try and get them on your side from the start.

[MC]

I will be moving into a grade II listed house in the next few months.

It's is need of a bit of modernising.

I want to install some new windows, rewire the place and sort out some of the floors.

Does anyone have any experience getting planning to put new windows into a listed building?

Also does anyone have any idea how much 12 custom made wooden windows (not to big) would cost?

 

Cheers

Harry

 

That is a bit like how long is a piece of string. If the windows are casement type then between £400 - £800, If they are sliding sash then £750 upwards. If you have to conserve the look and match mouldings etc then you could easily double that. Hardwood would be extra as well.

 

And that is each window, not total cost.

 

A quote of anything less than 6K and you are laughing

 

 

Just remember the listed building and conservation officers are worse than traffic wardens, don't tell them you want to do something. Make it sound like their suggestion.

 

Or as my mentor keeps telling me, "tell them what they want to hear"

Edited September 19, 2008 by martincavie

[Dirty Harry]

Thanks for all the advice.

 

The house is from the 16th Century and built in a few different stages. Parts are brick and timber (old ships timbers) and other parts are blue lias stone. Most of it has no foundations so I am told.

I am not sure that I would want to get an architect on board as other than the windows I don't think there is anything structural we want to do. The windows are basic frames with openers. Nothing fancy.

The floor in the old kitchen is quarry tiles and flagstones straight onto earth. Most of the quarry tiles are damaged and I want to replace them.

I dont think the planning officers could complain about a new kitchen and bathroom, could they?

The house comes with a dairy, cheese room and bread oven but I dont plan on touching them.

 

 

Can someone explain more about the zero vat on listed buildings?

 

Harry

[tulkyuk]

Harry - they should not be able to stop you putting anything you like inside a grade II Listed, but will have a say on anything you want to do to the structure or external features. - be careful not getting an architectural consultant involved, as they can help smooth the way and tend to have a better understanding of what the planners want - get someone local who has good comunication with the local council planners ( go into the planning office and look at the recent planning apps and pick someones name that seems does a lot of work and is putting quite a few plans in)

 

The Zero VAT bit means you can claim all your VAT back for any work or materials you use during renovation

Edited September 19, 2008 by tulkyuk

[al4x]

not quite, you'll be fine without an architect for those works but the VAT exemption is when you use a VAT registered builder to do work you have listed consent for and theres a load of other small print as well so in your case I'd forget about it. I have on my project as if we wanted to self manage the build and keep costs down it meant not using one proper builder for the works. you loose the vat on the materials but you don't pay a builders profit and in our case that was going to cost us a lot more than using sub contractors.

 

First thing you want to do is give the local conservation officer a call for an informal chat and sound them out a bit and see how reasonable they are. Thats assuming the windows are past saving, a lot can be done as far as replacing sections of frame etc which you don't need permission for on the plus side this is cheaper usually. As far as the quarry tiles are concerned if you are replacing like for like you don't need permission but if you are ripping them up you do. Sounds like an interesting project but one to go into with your eyes wide open, having next to no foundations gives you all sorts of headaches if you alter things too much and it will take a fair bit of heating in the winter theres nothing you can do about it. The more you seal it up the more it can cause you problems as ventilation of these old buildings lets them breathe. Take care what paint you use if its lime rendered as using the wrong ones stops the walls from breathing etc

New kitchen and bathroom is fine you don't need to apply just do it

[tulkyuk]

Strange that Alex, last one i did up this way the consevation officer told us that we didnt need his permision for anything inside, like floor tiles etc. but would need it for structure or facade changes. are you sure your not thinking of grade 1 listed :blink: as for the vat thing, we also managed to claim the VAT back on all materials used.

[Dirty Harry]

AL4X,

 

The house has been in the family for years and the wife grew up there. We are moving in now and just want to modernise some things as it seems the right time. You are right about heating the place. In the winter the woodburner and rayburn are on all the time!

 

I think I will do as you say and get the conservation officer round for a chat. I had a closer look at some of the windows today. Some are wood and some are metal. None are really in a bad state. I wanted to get some new ones to make the place a little more secure and warmer. I dont know how this will sit with the conservation people.

 

I will have to wait and see.

 

I will wait until they have gone to stick the sky dish up!

 

Harry

[jasons gold]

Strange that Alex, last one i did up this way the consevation officer told us that we didnt need his permision for anything inside, like floor tiles etc. but would need it for structure or facade changes. are you sure your not thinking of grade 1 listed :blink: as for the vat thing, we also managed to claim the VAT back on all materials used.

 

What you really need to find out is whats listed and whats not listed then you will find out what needs consent . I think tulkyuks house, the only parts that were listed were the structure and the facade.

Just because a building is listed doesn't mean everything is listed, the metal windows (crittalls) probably wont be listed.

Hope that helps

[Baldrick]

Jason, in my experience the windows on a listed dwelling can't be touched without consent. I ran into this problem with a couple of farm cottages that have Crittal windows. I'm not saying it's exhaustive, but don't assume the windows can be modified/replaced without approval.

[al4x]

Strange that Alex, last one i did up this way the consevation officer told us that we didnt need his permision for anything inside, like floor tiles etc. but would need it for structure or facade changes. are you sure your not thinking of grade 1 listed as for the vat thing, we also managed to claim the VAT back on all materials used.

 

What you really need to find out is whats listed and whats not listed then you will find out what needs consent . I think tulkyuks house, the only parts that were listed were the structure and the facade.

Just because a building is listed doesn't mean everything is listed, the metal windows (crittalls) probably wont be listed.

Hope that helps

 

 

actually every part of the building is Listed including extensions for instance in my case I have a very unsightly asbestos cement roof and you still need listed consent to change it.

With the floor tiles I am probably wrong but with the VAT part you cannot claim back yourself, the work has to be done by a VAT listed builder who can then charge you Zero rate for materials and labour to alterations which have been granted Listed consent. Those works have to be judged to be alterations rather than routine maintenance.

 

With the windows sounds like you have a mix of new and old, old ones just repair, newer ones you'll need to apply to change but if they are in an extension etc this should be granted fairly easily, it is a minefield best to stay on the right side of them as far as things they have to know about and stuff they won't see don't worry about in my experience it just causes problems

[Dirty Harry]

The wife has been on the phone to the planning officer today. She got some pictures of the house up on the internet and said the windows are not very special and it should not be a problem but they would have to come out to have a good look.

 

Harry