Willow32 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 OK, I dont want to stir any trouble up and I dont want to start an argument........lots of people say that you can get your own Liability insurance without joining any of the organisations..........who would people recommend to go to and also how do you approach the manner of I want it for shooting......also just a suggestion...dont shoot me down...if a large number of people approach them under one banner would you be able to get a discount? Regards Willow32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirusman Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I feel sure some of our resident experts will be along soon with a non biased opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) IF its posable i am looking into getting a package put to gether that will cover all shooting aspect including EXPERT FIREARMS LEGALS so if god forbid you get arrested you will have a breef there who knows his onions not just a duty bod who dont give a dam and will follow it through, If i manage to get such a package sorted i will post the insurance providers details and price, Its only at the beginning stage but with a little help from friends might just take off Edited December 10, 2008 by winchester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 You could get a stand alone policy from a broker, but minimum premiums would be well above even the most expensive association membership fee. I guess you could get a ‘discount’ if you took out a group policy between say 10 of you, then the cost would be split 10 ways. Most people who have home insurance will have public liability cover through that – so check that out, you may already have it! But, of course, ALL the organizations offer more than insurance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I totally agree with you Dave its just i found a hole and fell in it hard a hole i wish to fill before anyone else gets in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 If you are interested, take a look at the Ministry of Justice web site. They have done a lot of research into legal expenses insurance. LE insurance is getting very popular, not least of all because of the fact that unless you are pretty well below the poverty line you will NOT get automatic free legal support – so you have to pay. You can buy Before the event cover and After the event cover. BUT as Winchester found out, typically you do not get to choose your solicitor or court Advocate…If you want more specific cover with a choice of solicitor who is expert on firearms law, and who is also trained and qualified to do their own Advocacy, the cost goes up – a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) Willow you should just ask your local insurance agent. But before you get independant insurance make sure you join BASC or one of the other shooting protection organisations first. After all not a lot of point in you getting your insurance if you lose your shooting!! Edited December 10, 2008 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 The rules on selling insurance were tightened up very significantly three or four years ago. Now the seller of insurance has a very clear and strict duty of care to make sure they sell you the right policy, they must give you a written disclosure of the main benefits and restrictions on the policy, and so on. They are supposed to assess your demands and needs before making a choice or giving you advice on which policy to buy. This is all aimed at protecting you the consumer. Sellers of insurance have to be registered with the FSA and follow strict rules and guidelines set out by the FSA. The rules on selling insurance apply to ‘stand alone polices’ as well as insurance policies wrapped up in packages – like membership organization packages for example, provided that the insurance is being soled by way of business. By way of a test for ‘by way of business’ a sports club that has public liability insurance that extends to cover all members of the club while they are engages in sport are very unlikely to be seen to be acting by way of business, because people join the sports club to play sports, not to be insured. If the insurance was not there it would make no difference at all to your decision to join the club. However, if the ABC shooting association suddenly removed its insurance offering that normally comes with membership…what do you think would happen? Members would probably leave – so they are probably selling insurance by way of business. Before you buy insurance- any insurance stand alone or as part of a package – make sure you know what you are paying for, get the Key Facts document and read it – ask questions about it, get the full policy wording and read it and ask questions about it only when you are 100% happy should you part with your cash. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 OK, I dont want to stir any trouble up and I dont want to start an argument........lots of people say that you can get your own Liability insurance without joining any of the organisations..........who would people recommend to go to and also how do you approach the manner of I want it for shooting......also just a suggestion...dont shoot me down...if a large number of people approach them under one banner would you be able to get a discount? Regards Willow32 Willow clayman on here does just such a policy I believe. Shooting insurance on its own there should be a link to his site somewhere if you try a search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 As usual Dave thats 100% on the nose GOOD ADVICE I HOPE and pray BASC can fill the hole and give all round insurance in the future for the sake of the shooters out there that at the end of the day are BASC and with out the shooters BASC would be no more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 If you are interested, take a look at the Ministry of Justice web site. They have done a lot of research into legal expenses insurance. LE insurance is getting very popular, not least of all because of the fact that unless you are pretty well below the poverty line you will NOT get automatic free legal support – so you have to pay. You can buy Before the event cover and After the event cover. BUT as Winchester found out, typically you do not get to choose your solicitor or court Advocate…If you want more specific cover with a choice of solicitor who is expert on firearms law, and who is also trained and qualified to do their own Advocacy, the cost goes up – a lot! David - ISTR you were going to look into this aspect for BASC members, did you make any headway yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Willow clayman on here does just such a policy I believe. Shooting insurance on its own there should be a link to his site somewhere if you try a search I've just done a google, its called country cover card. I had a quick scoot through the policy, and wasn't over impressed. As I read it I would not be covered whilst riding my quad on the shoot for third party claims. As far as I am aware the BASC policy does cover this. It would be worthwhile some one with more experience than I comparing and contrasting ( as they said at school) the two policies. Come what may, its insurance, plain and simple, and doesn't make out to be what it isn't. Sorry, but I forgot to copy the link. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 (edited) I am certainly looking into all the options with legal expenses cover. You can buy a policy ‘off the shelf’ as it were for very little, even a stand alone policy should cost you well under £30 a year I would think, and I bet I could get a simple policy to cover all BASC members for between 50-75p a member – BUT chances are such a policy would not give you any choice of which legal firm you could use- and when you are dealing with the need for specialise advice that could be a problem. I am looking at other options that are more relevant and specific to the demands and needs of BASC members, this may take time as it is better to get it right and get the most relevant policy in place rather than rush out to put something in place that may not be up to the mark with firearms related claims – sure you will all agree. I have looked at the scant information on the web about the Country Cover Card insurance – it does not seem to be regulated by the FSA, nor, as far as I can see is the person responsible registered with the FSA. They are clearly selling insurance by way of business though… If it is not regulated by the FSA then I do not think you will be covered under the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. From what I can see this policy contains the great caveat they it will not pay out if there is another policy in play! So what are you paying for? If you have PL cover through your home insurance and LE cover the same way or through your motor insurance…then that is where the claim will end up most probably. If anyone wants to send me a copy of the full policy wording and a properly formatted Key Facts document I will have a read through it. Edited December 11, 2008 by David BASC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 From what I can see this policy contains the great caveat they it will not pay out if there is another policy in play! So what are you paying for? If you have PL cover through your home insurance and LE cover the same way or through your motor insurance…then that is where the claim will end up most probably. I know my car insurance says the same as does my dog insurance (who I might add is Petplan) isn't it mostly a clause to stop you making 2 claims? As for being FSA authorised obviously the broker is authorised so might it depend how the financial side is run? for instance if the broker takes the initial payment and then pays the re-seller separately might this account for it. As you yourself stated in PM's things aren't always as they appear at initial glance so possibly ask the questions before posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 In actual fact having done some digging David there is a director of Country cover who happens to be registered with the FSA as he is also the Broker so possibly you ought to retract the statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 The clause to prevent you making two claims is covered under ‘Control of Claims’ in insurance policies. This prevents you making two claims - or at least it should do! The caveat about other policies is not the same thing. This clause would give them the right to refuse to settle the claim and pass it onto your home insurance company for example. I very much doubt your car insurance would try to do this for a PL claim if you crashed into somone, but I agree it is possible the PL part of the dog insurance may do - much depends on what the main aim of the policy is you see. It is not clear who the broker is in this case, only that the underwriter (I am assuming) is a German company. Not withstanding this, the person selling the insurance in the UK must do so under FSA rules etc The seller must either be directly registered with the FSA or acting as an Appointed rep of the insurer- either way the FSA rules still apply. Remember, the FSA rules are there to stop any tom **** or harry selling insurance, and selling policies to people that do not fully meet their demands and needs. I think the legal expenses insurer involved in this insurance package by the way is the same one that Winchester had experience of earlier this year…... Al4x - I will PM you about you littel 'dig' at the end. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Chancery Barr Financial services are the broker as it states and also the contact for claims. They are registered with the FSA and a director of theirs who is also registered is also a director of Country Cover just to clear things up for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Retract what? That is is not clear who the broker is? It is not clear so i will not retract that That the person selling insurance must do so under FSA rules- that is true so i will not retract that That if you are not FSA' you will not be covered under the FSCS? This is true so I will not retract that That there is no idication if the seller / director is registered under the FSA? is is not evident so i will not retract that I have no reason to doubt that your investigation is valid, and thank you for taking the time it would be most useful if they would post the full Key Facts document and full policy wording on their site so people can see exactly what they are buying into. Please remember, that a very basic policy summarry is not enough, in my oppinion, to base your decision to buy on - this is why the FSA brought in very strict rules on how bokers etc can sell, advertise and promote their insurance product. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Fair play - on further reading there are some detials of the UK based broker- missed it the first time - sorry. Would still be nice to see the document properly formatted as a 'Key Facts' document though for clarity David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I'll leave it for the seller to pop on and explain more as I'm sure will happen. Personally I think the kind of service fills a niche certainly for shooters who don't have other policies in place it appears to offer cover. I know you're in the business of selling membership and insurance is one of your big selling points so I can see why you're concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 (edited) It would be great if they simply posted their Key Facts document on their site, and indeed the full policy wording – so short sighted twits like me can understand exactly what they are offering and exactly how they are registered with the FSA etc. By law that would have to give this to a client anyway, so no harm in posting it on the site I suggest? People can buy their insurance where they like, and as said many people are probably already insured for PL via other means- some interesting stuff on the Ministry of Justice web site for you all to read if you are interested. This thread is about where people can buy insurance from, the answer is just about anywhere – but before you go out any buy another insurance policy – please check what cover you already have – no point spending if you do not need to is there? But, as been said- no point having shooting insurance if you cant own a gun, or you cant go shooting anywhere, or if you have nothing to shoot at…. David (off to buy new glasses) Edited December 11, 2008 by David BASC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I am certainly looking into all the options with legal expenses cover. You can buy a policy ‘off the shelf’ as it were for very little, even a stand alone policy should cost you well under £30 a year I would think, and I bet I could get a simple policy to cover all BASC members for between 50-75p a member – BUT chances are such a policy would not give you any choice of which legal firm you could use- and when you are dealing with the need for specialise advice that could be a problem. I am looking at other options that are more relevant and specific to the demands and needs of BASC members, this may take time as it is better to get it right and get the most relevant policy in place rather than rush out to put something in place that may not be up to the mark with firearms related claims – sure you will all agree. I have looked at the scant information on the web about the Country Cover Card insurance – it does not seem to be regulated by the FSA, nor, as far as I can see is the person responsible registered with the FSA. They are clearly selling insurance by way of business though… If it is not regulated by the FSA then I do not think you will be covered under the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. From what I can see this policy contains the great caveat they it will not pay out if there is another policy in play! So what are you paying for? If you have PL cover through your home insurance and LE cover the same way or through your motor insurance…then that is where the claim will end up most probably. If anyone wants to send me a copy of the full policy wording and a properly formatted Key Facts document I will have a read through it. Thanks David. In the light of what happened in Winchester's case I'd guess most of us would want to be represented by a shooting specialist legal expert. I sure they must exist - and be available to members of BASC at a reasonable bulk membership price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 We certainly maintain a nationwide database of solicitors that are well versed in firearms law, and it would be them that we would want to use, not (with all respect) the first solicitor on a rotation for example who may not be fully up to speed with firearms law or have the knowledge of expert witnesses etc. I am sure this makes sense... It comes back to an important point about buying insurance- making sure that the policy fits your demands and needs. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Yes you can get PL insurance from other places AND most household policies come with it, although you should check that it will cover ‘field sports’. You might find though that farmers want to see a legitimate, recognisable policy in place from a company they know (and trust). BUT why fight shy of joining BASC (or any other organisation) that supports your sport. It’s not just about insurance (or shouldn’t be) but about the future of what we all love doing, shooting! Don’t be a skinflint and spend some money on supporting those who support you and your rights. I’m sick of seeing posts on here about how much everything costs when most of those involved have at least 1 gun, 1 set of shooting clothes, 1 set of boots and all the other trimmings that go with our sport which probably amounts, even for the cheapest of the cheap to at least £1000 worth yet they won’t spend £50, £60, £70 on helping their sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I hate to say it highlander but weren't the problems through a policy with the NFU an organisation most farmers would recognise ahead of the BASC as they do seem to cover most farms insurance needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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