A new years wish - Catridge information.

[anser2]

My New Years Wish

 

If there are any cartridge manufactures on here I would like to appeal to them to clearly label the contents on their boxes or shell cases.

 

If you buy a tin of baked beans you have the full ingredients , weight , calorific or energy values and so on. Yet the information available on the average box of cartridges in minimal to say the least.

 

1. We need a true shot size , perhaps best in mm. If you buy Winchester shells in the UK , reading the box you will find most are loaded in Italy so are the pellets in UK , American or Italian sizes. Some UK loaded steel shells are in UK sizes while others are in US sizes. This is important as big steel pellets are not safe to shoot through more than 1\2 choke in a 70mm chambered gun.

2. We need to know the speed of a shell. Very few cartridges have their speed printed on the side of the box. This becomes more important with steel. I have read the new Express 32gr steel is only 850 fps , far too slow for effective kills beyond 25 yards. On the other hand I have some 32gr Remington shells at 1500 fps. A shell that you can expect to give clean kills to 40 yards and perhaps a little more.

3. We need to know the pressure of the cartridge. I saw some 32gr 70mm gamebore steel the other day with a warning note inside the box not to use in guns unless proved to 1370 barr , yet on the outside of the box it stated they were safe to use in 70mm chambered guns. Very few if any 70 mm guns are proofed to such a level. I have some Borangi steel shells that are 70mm chambered , but have a 36gr steel load and proved to 1370barr.

4. While its not so important there is no reason why we cant also have information on wad type , shot hardness or powder type.

 

Sooner or later someone is going to be seriously injured or worse by using the wrong shell in the wrong gun so its so important we have all the necessary information to hand.

[Whitebridges]

I'd also like to see more mandatory information provided.

I'd also like to see cartridges cases colour coded depending on bore. e.g.

12 bore = Red

16 bore = Blue

20 bore = Yellow

etc.

etc.

Agreed, there is another nasty accident out there waiting to happen.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Whitebridges

[perfect]

I agree i have a lanber proofed to 1370 barr not sure if i can shoot some winchester 3" supreme xx magnums 1,7/8oz size 4 shot 1210 fps

ps the gun is chambered for 3".

[Edward]

I'd also like to see more mandatory information provided.

I'd also like to see cartridges cases colour coded depending on bore. e.g.

12 bore = Red

16 bore = Blue

20 bore = Yellow

etc.

etc.

Agreed, there is another nasty accident out there waiting to happen.

 

Thats a very good idea

[pat 1]

I agree i have a lanber proofed to 1370 barr not sure if i can shoot some winchester 3" supreme xx magnums 1,7/8oz size 4 shot 1210 fps

ps the gun is chambered for 3".

 

Hello guys i have been away in the states for a while working and am just going through the forum to catch up. This thread interests me a lot as I have been toying with the idea of maybe starting a small manufacturing business over here to make shells.An awful lot of research still to do but there is still the possibility I can get it going.If any of you have any advise or information even if negative,lay it on.It is an awful thing that the country which once ruled the world in gunmanufactureing now depend on Italians etc for their shells.Not that I have anything against Italians,far from it,but I think there is an opening there.

A friend asked me at a shoot once what the pressure meant.I didnt know but tried to find out.It has to do with the pressure built up by the burning powder behind the wad.Higher pressure=faster burn of the powder which in turn will propell the shot forward faster.This has nothing to do with recoil.But to get higher velocity you need higher pressure.It is apparently useful in colder weather were you will get a cleaner burn of your powder.Low pressure shells will be dirtier.Apparently shooting high pressure shells will not do any harm in modern guns if the standard recomended pressure is not exceeded by a lot.But if an awful lot of very high pressure shells are used it could eventually loosen the action of your gun or worse.Perfect I would think if you look up winchesters site it may give you the pressure of these shells.They seem to be very fast fot that load.Likely kick like a mule LOL.

Regards Pat.

 

happy new year to you all.

[BlaserF3]

I have found Hull cartridge website http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/products/co...n/intercomp.cfm very informative.

[clayman]

 

2. We need to know the speed of a shell. Very few cartridges have their speed printed on the side of the box. This becomes more important with steel. I have read the new Express 32gr steel is only 850 fps , far too slow for effective kills beyond 25 yards. On the other hand I have some 32gr Remington shells at 1500 fps. A shell that you can expect to give clean kills to 40 yards and perhaps a little more.

3. We need to know the pressure of the cartridge. I saw some 32gr 70mm gamebore steel the other day with a warning note inside the box not to use in guns unless proved to 1370 barr , yet on the outside of the box it stated they were safe to use in 70mm chambered guns. Very few if any 70 mm guns are proofed to such a level. I have some Borangi steel shells that are 70mm chambered , but have a 36gr steel load and proved to 1370barr.

 

 

Different manufacturers use different speed measuring systems. Some manufacturers quote Muzzle Velocity (MV), others Observed Velocity at a set distance from the barrel(OV), and still others Average Velocity over a set distance away from the barrel (AV). Regardless of the MV exit speed, every cartridge drops to below 1000fps rapidly. The sonic pressure front on a pellet running above the speed of sound, 1075fps+, rapidly decelerates it. Most of the flight of any pellet is sub-sonic.

 

The suggested speed of 850fps for the 32g steel may well be a true AV, but it may still have a manufacturers quoted MV of 1350fps or more. Most of the flight path of any pellet is going to be around this velocity when read as an AV.

 

Generally, slower cartridges have superior patterns, as fast exit velocities create longer cone like pattern strings with more wasted tail flyers. A slower MV gives a shorter and more regular shot cloud, and a greater percentage of useful pellets.

 

Because many potential customers are hung up on thinking faster is better, any top branded cartridges, particularly those for dedicated purposes like DTL and Skeet, deliberately do not state their speeds. They rely on reported high performance from shooters to sell what is in fact a relatively slow cartridge.

 

As there is no International convention on cartridge markings, indeed, not even a set std of info given by UK manufacturers, all info given has to be read very carefully and converted to meaningful comparative information when comparing the specs if two manufacturers. It even pays to know whether the intended end market for the box was, as the info given on a box designated for UK sale may well be different to the same brand of cartridge packed for sale in another community, or grey imported for re-sale here.

 

Actual case length should not be relied on to calculate pressure, as with modern powders it is easy to load Magnum pressures into a shorter case. Alway go by the pressure rating.

Edited January 4, 2009 by clayman

[anser2]

I agree with what you are saying Clayman about slower cartridges giving better pattens and for lead slow cartridges perform very well , but in the case of steel slow shells to not give the pellets enough speed to kill birds cleanly. The faster the pellet travels the better pentration you get. This is very important with large birds like geese ans some of the shells I use have a speed of 1500 fps.

 

The big trouble is that a lot of cartridges do not show the pressure rating or confuse the picture . Fot example recently loaded 70mm gamebore 32 gr steel shells have a leaflet inside recomending they are not used in guns unless tested to 1370bar. Yet on the outside of the box it states they are recomended to be safe to use in guns tested to 850bar. !!!!

 

I have in my hand at the moment a box of Rio Royal lead and there is no mention of pressures on the box or shell.

Edited January 4, 2009 by anser2

[urikastu]

I have in my hand at the moment a box of Rio Royal lead and there is no mention of pressures on the box or shell.

 

 

Try there website, I think it gives you the info you need

 

http://www.rioammo.com/target_bird.htm

[anser2]

Thanks for the Rio info urikastu. Unfortunetly it does not list Rio Royal 32 gr only 36 gr. But good stuff on there about several other shells I use. Interesting my fav Rio shell 28gr target on 6s is not listed.

[clayman]

Yes, extra MV speed may give you another 5m reach, but thats about it. A 1300 MV cartridge is probably doing 850fps at 30yds while a 1500 MV might get you 875 or even 900 fps, but the effective velocity once the pellet gets under the speed of sound and is out at range will not be much different out at 40 -50yds. The speed increase is an exponential logarithmic ratio based on the inverse square rule, so to get 1/2 as much speed at a given range you need to double the MV.

 

The most effective way of improving the performance will be to increase the pellet size, so it carries more inertial energy. When using steel dropping a shot size or two from what was conventionally used in the lead days, will pay big dividends.

 

This being said, having confidence in your gear is important, and if you believe they are 100% more effective, they will be!!!

Edited January 5, 2009 by clayman