starlight32 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Could some-one please tell me what is the official line on the installation of the above. Do I by by law have to install a high efficient condensing boiler or can I install a standard combi. As far as I see it if you have no suitable way of routing the disposal of the condensate then you are permitted to install the latter. I wish to have a new boiler installed and the engineer insists that if he installs a standard efficiency combi than by law he will be unable to commision it to CORGI regs as he says he could install a high efficiency unit, he has calculated a points system on the above and it comes out in the favour of the earlier option. I however refute this as there is no drain nearby to route it to- I have no desire to have condensate dribbling from a pipe beside my back door all day long, which the engineer states even if so we be of no consequence or detriment to the property... Surely as a home-owner I reserve the right to have what I want installed?? Please can one of the members of knowledge please officiate? Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_B Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) Can he not fit a tank with internal pump to pump the condensate to drain ...surely if ther is room for the associated piping to the boiler then there should be enough room to install another 15mm pipe to a suitable stack ?? would find another installer if i was you ..condensing boilers are the way to go . P.s condensate is acidic hence the reason it cannot be left to dribble...def find another installer Edited January 15, 2009 by Andy_B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 he is simply trying to comply with the current building regulations. I believe they allow a non condensing in exceptional circumstances but I doubt your problem would be classed as exceptional. The issues are his livelihood and he is giving advice, is there no way of running it into a drain or possibly moving the boiler closer to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 he is simply trying to comply with the current building regulations. I believe they allow a non condensing in exceptional circumstances but I doubt your problem would be classed as exceptional. The issues are his livelihood and he is giving advice, is there no way of running it into a drain or possibly moving the boiler closer to one. No, there is no chance of running to a drain at all, I don't have any exterior drains as the property is fairly new, and everything runs internally. No soil stack, no surface water drains access either. Can't move the boiler either as I am not having a new hole ran through the wall for a flue as the house is too new and making good would not be cosmetically good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhiannonBW Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 We had a condensing boiler put in and the engineer ran a pipe from the boiler to our washing machine waste pipe. The alternatives we were offered were a pipe to the kitchen sink waste water disposal, or to have a pipe to an outside drain. It's about a cup full of water each day. Rhiannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 where does the roof water go in that case? I hate to say it but you may need to get it fitted on the sly in that case as most will want their work to conform to building regs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_B Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) you must have some sort of soil stack for foul water waste ....and where your gutters go for rain water or is it a middle flat ? Edited January 15, 2009 by Andy_B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERMIN CONTROL Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I think you can put a purpose made soak away in to a depth of about 500mm , and fill with a bag of lime chips to discarge the condensate, the lime chips break down the acidic in the water , Dont quote me on it though as im a electrician not Gas engineer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) firstly, you dont come across the circumstances which dont allow the installation of a high efficiency boiler pretty often... theres usually somthing thats can be done...however, theres always an exception to every rule.... and when the installation cannot be done, an older standard efficiency boiler can be installed with written permission from corgi (soon to be " gas safe")..... ive never had this happen though, usually there is an answer.... secondly.... the guy who came out and gave you advice is right in what he says,..... if you want the installation to comply with current legislation etc, it must be H/E... as of april 2005 that was..... and i might add, youd probably have an awfull lot of trouble buying a standard effieciency boiler even if you wanted one !!! when the change over happened, installers like myself bought what the merchants had on the shelves for a low price... these were then installed on cash jobs with no paperwork...thats doesnt make the job any less a quality or dodgy, it just didnt comply with regulation...it was not to current standards... ( but, however, not allowed none the less....usally for friends and family etc...) so, anyway,i doubt youd find a new one. thirdly.... the h/e boilers are very efficient and i know which way id rather go with the price of gas..... deffo h/e. as for you having no drain point for your condensate.... the pipe he suggest having dripping by the door..... well, you would'nt have or leave ANY condensate drain dripping, ever. they must be sleeved to protect from freezing as a frozen condensate drain will halt the operation of any boiler pronto. if you have a gulley or drain, the sleeved condensate pipe must go right into it.... IF YOU DONT HAVE A DRAIN, YOU NEED TO FITT A SOAK AWAY DRAIN...this is a small drain dig a hole around 2 foot deep and 1 foot across... put the soak away drain into it and back fill the hole with lime chippings....soil/paving etc can be re made neatly over the top... your condensate drain will now fit into the soak away..... but usually, the condensate can be ran into a waste pipe off a bath/sink/basin/shower/washing machine or straight into a soil stack via a strap on boss..... where theres a will, theres a way. as stated above, condensate waste is mildly acidic and has to be dealt with properly. so finally... dont be so cinical , the lad was trying to do the job right for you, not push you into doing somthing you dont want or need.... you dont really have "much" choice about it.... unless of course you want to get a standard efficiency boiler and do it yourself ? or have some pleb off a six week course come round and "have a go".... any questions, just ask..... Edited January 15, 2009 by myzeneye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I think you can put a purpose made soak away in to a depth of about 500mm , and fill with a bag of lime chips to discarge the condensate, the lime chips break down the acidic in the water , Dont quote me on it though as im a electrician not Gas engineer beat me too it old pal whilst i was typing that load of pap out above... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polester Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 If it's a new house how old is the existing boiler as some have 2-3 year guarantees. Whats wrong with the old one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 or you can use one of these..... http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsession...chbutton=submit no excuses now.... and thats exactly what corgi or your local buling control dept would tell you.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_B Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Thats the tank i was talking about ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikee Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I get asked this question on a regular basis as a building inspector and this is the approach most BCO's adopt, as long as the new boiler is at least 86% efficient and it is not practical to run a drain to collect the condensate there is no requirement to install a condensing type boiler, generally this means digging up internal floors, if the boiler is on an external wall and an external drain could be reasonably easily extended then it would need to be done and a condensing boiler fitted, digging up lawn or flower beds would be seen as reasonable, digging up hard paved areas would not. mikee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz2202 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I own an independent plumbing merchants and standard efficiency combi boilers are now more expensive that h/e. Its because the manufacturers have to stop usuall production to make one. If your lucky to find one on the shelf, REMEMBER it will now be nearly 4 years old and if it packs up there will not be any warrantee. Also average house will save around £75 per annum on gas with a condenser. Go with the advice of the pro's and go for the condensing option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazykayaker Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) as a gas inspector and heating engineer i have yet to see a typical domestic property that cannot have a sedbuk A or B rated boiler installed. with all the different flueing options and condensate disposal options (pumped away, soakway etc.) you will find it very difficult to get an exemption as it seems like you live in a newer property just remember the condense must terminate into a foul drain and not the rainwater system as the theory now is that if to much condense runs into the rainwater system it could eventually contaminate it, as it is slightly acidic what boiler are you considering?? Edited January 15, 2009 by krazykayaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I get asked this question on a regular basis as a building inspector and this is the approach most BCO's adopt, as long as the new boiler is at least 86% efficient and it is not practical to run a drain to collect the condensate there is no requirement to install a condensing type boiler, generally this means digging up internal floors, if the boiler is on an external wall and an external drain could be reasonably easily extended then it would need to be done and a condensing boiler fitted, digging up lawn or flower beds would be seen as reasonable, digging up hard paved areas would not. mikee that may be the case on your patch mikee... and thats good for any loon in your area who doesn't want a high efficiency appliance () but in other area's,with other more militant bco's there aint much chance of getting away with standard efficiency... there are too many alternative options,like the soak away drain.... they take a few mins to install, so no drain or gulley aint really an excuse...... ok, what if the floor out side is concrete/tarmac etc..... well how hard is it to wizz a hole out of it to sink a soak away..(core bit could make a neat hole/still saw could cut a neat square etc etc ..... if the boiler can only go in the centre of the building..... well the pumped option will get you into a nearby waste pipe in a kitchen/bathroom etc etc.... there isnt really allot of instances where installation would be deemed totally impractable.... me, if i was buying a boiler...i would be insisting on a h/e anyway....and would explore every option for fitting a con drain... as a last resort if it where totally impractable, well then id have to have a s/e but it would be with some reluctance.... where is the boiler sited now where is the nearest drain/waste pipe/soil pipe etc..,.can the boiler site be moved ? i often give at least two options when siting the boiler.... existing site/old cylinder location or the favourite, in the loft.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Firstly, the soil stack is out of sight, runs through the center of the house and all drain services are hidden form view. Most fairly new builds don't have waste pipe coming out the kitchens or bathrooms these days anyway and most run internally. No I cannot dig up my access area as I have block paving down and a soak-away is more work. Even the engineer has said he can't run the condensate to the sink waste. It is just a stalemate I just don't see why you have to be told what to install..... It is up to the consumer at the end of the day There are some good points that the Engineers have highlighted though... The benefits of the condensing system etc which I fully appreciate. I just don't like being told what to do in my own house when I am doing the paying..... The reason I am replacing my boiler is that in the near future I intend to extend and the current boiler is too close to the mark and will struggle to run the additional load, Current boiler potterton New boiler -Worcester Bosch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 If only building control accepted it was your house and you could do what the hell you liked life would be much simpler. But fact is they don't so you either get it done on the side and don't comply but when you have your extension it is likely to be the reason they won't sign it off. If you get the wrong BCO you'll end up being forced to fit a new one or not get the work signed off at which point your house will be un saleable. Sounds very over the top but its the way it works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 If only building control accepted it was your house and you could do what the hell you liked life would be much simpler. But fact is they don't so you either get it done on the side and don't comply but when you have your extension it is likely to be the reason they won't sign it off. If you get the wrong BCO you'll end up being forced to fit a new one or not get the work signed off at which point your house will be un saleable. Sounds very over the top but its the way it works What you do is run a dummy pipe from the boiler simulating condensate overflow.... Get some condensing boiler stickers on the front of the casing and away you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikee Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 as a gas inspector and heating engineer i have yet to see a typical domestic property that cannot have a sedbuk A or B rated boiler installed. with all the different flueing options and condensate disposal options (pumped away, soakway etc.) you will find it very difficult to get an exemption as it seems like you live in a newer property just remember the condense must terminate into a foul drain and not the rainwater system as the theory now is that if to much condense runs into the rainwater system it could eventually contaminate it, as it is slightly acidic what boiler are you considering?? does the surface water from your house discharge to the surface water sewer system or to a soak away in the garden, if to a soak away and you can get to a down pipe you can run it away in there mikee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikee Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 If only building control accepted it was your house and you could do what the hell you liked life would be much simpler. But fact is they don't so you either get it done on the side and don't comply but when you have your extension it is likely to be the reason they won't sign it off. If you get the wrong BCO you'll end up being forced to fit a new one or not get the work signed off at which point your house will be un saleable. Sounds very over the top but its the way it works al4x, its not building control who dont accept its your house and you can do what you like to it, its the secretary of state who has decided because in his view its your house but everybody's gas reserve and environment, and who's to say you don't do all this work and then sell the place. mikee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 believe me mate, i more then familair with the design and layouts of most systems, new build and old.... so, as for the soil pipe being "out of sight"...what does that matter ? surely it can be accessed at some point, and if it cant you should be able to access a waste pipe under a floor board/panel or behind a stud wall etc...if youve got a soil pipe, then its not impossible to get at it at some point.... if you wanna bake a pretty cake pal, youve gotta crack some eggs im afraid...... and if you had to install a soak away... they take minutes to install.... they're cylindrical, approx 5-6 inches in diameter and around 12 inches long.... now if you cant lift a few blocks , probably two at the most to dig down a hole with a trowel this size and drop one in and top up with lime chipps, then theres just something plain wrong.... its that simple.... they are simple to install....it would take minutes honestly. i agree ,you should be able to do what the hell you please in your own home, but in this day and age with climate issues etc, the keoto agreement kicked off the initiative that any appliance install should be of a certain level of efficiency.... gas is not renewable, and weather you agree with the global warming issues or not evry one should make a conscious effort to consume more efficiently. seems to me like the installer youve chosen has told you a few things which are gonna create a little more upheaval then you had anticipated and this, has put a bee in you bonnet.... well, the answer is to try a different installer..... there are ways around every problem, i deal with them day in day out....there will be a solution, if of course, your willing to have one. not having a go mate, just try and be realistic about the whole thing.... finally, worcester bosch are ok, but my money is on vaillant. every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz2202 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Regardless of where the soil pipe is, it has to be accessible somehow. What would you do if it was blocked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 exactly right daz, if its there, its accessible... you may think its not, but it is... theres always a way.... when you know how that is.... if you think that lifting floors or opening ducts/boxes is unnecessary and will be too traumatic to add to the installation, then its a miracle worker you need, not a plumber. your soak way is totally doable. if i turned up to an install and it had to have a soak away, i wouldnt see it as a problem at all, often its a much much easier option... the fact that you have block paving is neither here nor there and would only add approx ten min's onto the overall time it would take to install into soil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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