mark_mjs93 Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 hey people, quick update, ollie is getting on GREAT with his training, he has, heel, stop, Drop (as in lay), release, hold, and all the basics, down to a T, NOW for the question... basically, im ready to move on to retrieving with him, i play Fetch with him whilst out on his walks and when im in the garden and such, but basically, when i throw the toy/dummy he just bolts Straight after it, now i have already started in this part of training but i am having trouble, now as i said, when i throw the dummy he bolts Straight after it, this i tried to kerb by using the lead, i have him on the lead next to me, then i throw the dummy, he trys to bolt after it but i keep the tension on the lead, and then when i release him, he has lost intrest and just sort of looks at me, OR walks out a bit and then turns and looks at me as if to say "so what am i doing?" any ideas of what i can do to stop this? i think starting with him on the lead next to me is a good place to start, but its that he loses interest when i dont release, him, any ideas are welcomed.... ATB Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 When doing control work shorten down the distance of the retrieve so that it is only 15 / 20 feet to start. Once he gets the hang of it you can lengthen him back out. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTANDFISH Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Blow the sit whistle and use the hand signal for sit before throwing the dummy. have the dog next to you when you start and only throw it a short distance...if the dog moves drag it back gentlly with the scruff of the neck back to the side of you ... but make sure the dog is 100 % steady to the sit whistle first...!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTANDFISH Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 P.S Try not to do too many retrieves a day with a ball or dummy 2 or 3 at the most or the dog wil be bored stiff... if it does get bored try a rabbit skinned ball or dummy just to keep it interested, but still only stick to 2 or 3 retrieves a day max..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 P.S Try not to do too many retrieves a day with a ball or dummy 2 or 3 at the most or the dog wil be bored stiff... I personally do not agree with this train of thought. I play retrieve with my pups right from the word go and build a love for retrieving. Even after the dogs are fully trained they will do play retrieves or formal retrieves until they are too physically tired to do any more, at which point they will have a drink and sleep as they are knackered. And 99 times out of 100 I quit before they do as my arm is tired. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_mjs93 Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 shootandfish, input appreciated but, i have tried without the lead and this does not work, i am going to start with the long lead (10m) and do short retrieves to start with, then move on to long ones, anyone use a dummy launcher? you know the ones that use blanks in them? i was wondering if anyone here uses them to associate the gun shot with a retrieve? thanks for the help guys, about to take him out for todays session, i think i might try some retrieves today..... ATB Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTANDFISH Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 If the dog will not sit and stay while you throw a dummy then the dog IS NOT 100 % steady..!!! Should not need any leads..!!! Not sure how old you dog is but it seems you might be trying to rush things...Try and get a copy of this book tells you everything you need to know......Training Spaniels - Joe Irving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creccamarsh Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 (edited) You mention how well the dogs training has gone, listing all what can be done......but can the dog do a basic sit/stay?:(? If not then how do you expect the dog to sit/stay with the temptation of a dummy!! I would work on geting the dog to sit and stay for a short while and short distance from me before attempting steadyness to the dummy. They can be steadied before hand but why make life harder for yourself, get the basics in and move on at a steady pace. Many people do too much too young and think the basics are there but when they start to move onto slightly more advanced stuff then the wheels start to fall off. I would get it to sit and stay so I can walk off at least 20metres and it remain there for at least 20 seconds....very basic stuff. Then I would sit it up and walk 5m away. Reinforce the sit sommand and just drop a dummy behind my feet, not thrown, just dropped. If the dog bolts, stand on the dummy, tell it NO! then quietly replace the dog where it was and repeat. Praise the dog on the spot when it does it right.When it clicks and the dog no longer moves, I would return to the dog and then send it for the dummy. Then do a couple more where the dog doesn't move and has to wait. Be aware that when you crouch down a dog is very tempted to move in towards you as it is the same body language as a puppy recall. So make sure you can get the dog to sit and stay, you are able to walk around it, do up you shoe laces etc... all without the dog moving before moving on to the steadyness training. There are other ways I use to steady a dog but it will depend on the dog in front of me at that time. But get it 100% reliable and solid on a sit/stay. Do not rush it or you will end up the same as plenty of other dogs that are out there and their owners tell you they are 100% steady......most of the time!!!......unless so and so happens.....they are NOT steady if they move! Good luck Regards Rich Edited May 6, 2009 by Creccamarsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechessam Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 You mention how well the dogs training has gone, listing all what can be done......but can the dog do a basic sit/stay?? If not then how do you expect the dog to sit/stay with the temptation of a dummy!! I would work on geting the dog to sit and stay for a short while and short distance from me before attempting steadyness to the dummy. They can be steadied before hand but why make life harder for yourself, get the basics in and move on at a steady pace. Many people do too much too young and think the basics are there but when they start to move onto slightly more advanced stuff then the wheels start to fall off. I would get it to sit and stay so I can walk off at least 20metres and it remain there for at least 20 seconds....very basic stuff. Then I would sit it up and walk 5m away. Reinforce the sit sommand and just drop a dummy behind my feet, not thrown, just dropped. If the dog bolts, stand on the dummy, tell it NO! then quietly replace the dog where it was and repeat. Praise the dog on the spot when it does it right.When it clicks and the dog no longer moves, I would return to the dog and then send it for the dummy. Then do a couple more where the dog doesn't move and has to wait. Be aware that when you crouch down a dog is very tempted to move in towards you as it is the same body language as a puppy recall. So make sure you can get the dog to sit and stay, you are able to walk around it, do up you shoe laces etc... all without the dog moving before moving on to the steadyness training. There are other ways I use to steady a dog but it will depend on the dog in front of me at that time. But get it 100% reliable and solid on a sit/stay. Do not rush it or you will end up the same as plenty of other dogs that are out there and their owners tell you they are 100% steady......most of the time!!!......unless so and so happens.....they are NOT steady if they move! Good luck Regards Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytie Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 In Peter Moxon's book "Training the roughshooters dog", he advocates starting when it is a puppy. First hold the pup back on your lap when you throw the dummy, then let him retrieve it, make it a pleasant treat not a repetitive exercise. Then after his basic sit and stay training try sitting your pup in front of you, throw the dummy back over your shoulder. Keeping your eyes on the pup at all times making it stop and stay, then when you are ready send the pup for the retrieve. This only wants doing one or two times each training session. It should be a pleasure and a treat to play this game. If the pup is losing interest stop. Do something else. Atb, ft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 I may have missed it elsewhere, apologies if I have - but how old is your dog and what type of dog is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggone Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 If the dog will not sit and stay while you throw a dummy then the dog IS NOT 100 % steady..!!! Should not need any leads..!!! Not sure how old you dog is but it seems you might be trying to rush things...Try and get a copy of this book tells you everything you need to know......Training Spaniels - Joe Irving Totally agree with shootandfish. The stay command is just about the most important exercise to master (and probably one of the easiest to train). You should be well finished with leads before serious retrieving is started. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 (edited) I have tried the books and the videos, Edward Martins master class was the easiest for me as i could see what was needed, not that i got it right, else i wouldn't be going to see Rich (creccamarsh-gundogs) but the one way i get my cocker to sit is to get him to sit up and then i walk 10-15 foot in front of him. whilst facing him a reinforce the sit up with voice and hand signal and then throw dummy over my shoulder. if the dog brakes i can grab him as he tries to go past. but something else i have read is that not every retrieve is for the dog, you need to go and retrieve more than the dog or he will antisapate whats coming and then run it. this isonly what i have picked up along the way from books and dvds as in new to it all. he still runs in when at my side but not when im in front of him or put my hand on his chest. just need to get him back now.lmao. I can't get on with books and dvds as they dont show you what to do when your getting it wrong and they all say something differant and tend to contrdict each other. i have stopped doing anything other than the basic sit's, lead work, heals and recalls with teague until i have seen Rich and know where im going wrong. Edited May 8, 2009 by activeviii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_mjs93 Posted May 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 You mention how well the dogs training has gone, listing all what can be done......but can the dog do a basic sit/stay? ? If not then how do you expect the dog to sit/stay with the temptation of a dummy!! I would work on geting the dog to sit and stay for a short while and short distance from me before attempting steadyness to the dummy. They can be steadied before hand but why make life harder for yourself, get the basics in and move on at a steady pace. Many people do too much too young and think the basics are there but when they start to move onto slightly more advanced stuff then the wheels start to fall off. I would get it to sit and stay so I can walk off at least 20metres and it remain there for at least 20 seconds....very basic stuff. Then I would sit it up and walk 5m away. Reinforce the sit sommand and just drop a dummy behind my feet, not thrown, just dropped. If the dog bolts, stand on the dummy, tell it NO! then quietly replace the dog where it was and repeat. Praise the dog on the spot when it does it right.When it clicks and the dog no longer moves, I would return to the dog and then send it for the dummy. Then do a couple more where the dog doesn't move and has to wait. Be aware that when you crouch down a dog is very tempted to move in towards you as it is the same body language as a puppy recall. So make sure you can get the dog to sit and stay, you are able to walk around it, do up you shoe laces etc... all without the dog moving before moving on to the steadyness training. There are other ways I use to steady a dog but it will depend on the dog in front of me at that time. But get it 100% reliable and solid on a sit/stay. Do not rush it or you will end up the same as plenty of other dogs that are out there and their owners tell you they are 100% steady......most of the time!!!......unless so and so happens.....they are NOT steady if they move! Good luck Regards Rich Totally agree with shootandfish. The stay command is just about the most important exercise to master (and probably one of the easiest to train). You should be well finished with leads before serious retrieving is started.Andy sit was the first thing he learnt (like most dogs) and stay the second, i say he has basics down, when i say basics you should know what i mean, sit and stay yes he knows and performs extremely well, SHOOTANDFISH dog isnt steady and no im not rushing things, and that i can promise you, he is training on a daily basis and it isnt long 10mins a day, we will work on a new command every 2 weeks or so, this may seem a little fast, but this is the3 system i have chosen and he seems to work well to it, after a month of training, we do what is essentially a "test" it isnt intense, but it is just a basic test to see if he can remember all the commands, if he cant then i will carry on for another month on the same commands, and not introduce new ones, this has worked well and im fine with working this system as ollie doesnt seem to mind it, at the moment the sessions are going well and im keeping him happy in the sessions whilst being serious, as for lead use, i myself am happy using the lead to start with, as if he does attempt to go for the dummy he can be corrected and can be kept back, now you may not agree with this and you can say that the dog isnt 100% "steady" but to be honest what puppy is, he is 10 months old now i havent got him in an intense training scheme because he is still rather young, but i am moving on to simple retrives, now you havent read my thread correctly and it isnt rather annoying when people do not read correctly, the dog is 100% steady, now as with most dogs he can slip up, but bare in mind he is only a puppy and the perfect steadiness will develop (dont try to give me a lecture thankyou) as he is only young, he will not move from his position when i am getting ready for a retrieve, because i will give him the command, "sit, stay" he wont move then, until i say "off" this is the command i use to release him from the spot, this is also what is used for him to go and get the dummy, when he has the dummy, he will be commanded "Fetch it to me" in which case he does, but the problem is, he loses intrest if i say sit and stay and then throw the dummy, ill command him "off" and he stands walks and stops and looks at me, No offence, but im not asking how to train my dog, im asking how to keep his interest in the dummy, thank you and if you can answer THAT question instead of giving me training advice i would be greatful, for those that have helped with this thankyou, he is doing better and is starting to keep interest in the dummy, and im very proud of him, ill have pictures up soon.... ATB mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creccamarsh Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 hey people, quick update, ollie is getting on GREAT with his training, he has, heel, stop, Drop (as in lay), release, hold, and all the basics, down to a T, NOW for the question...basically, im ready to move on to retrieving with him, i play Fetch with him whilst out on his walks and when im in the garden and such, but basically, when i throw the toy/dummy he just bolts Straight after it, now i have already started in this part of training but i am having trouble, now as i said, when i throw the dummy he bolts Straight after it, this i tried to kerb by using the lead, i have him on the lead next to me, then i throw the dummy, he trys to bolt after it but i keep the tension on the lead, and then when i release him, he has lost intrest and just sort of looks at me, OR walks out a bit and then turns and looks at me as if to say "so what am i doing?" any ideas of what i can do to stop this? i think starting with him on the lead next to me is a good place to start, but its that he loses interest when i dont release, him, any ideas are welcomed.... ATB Mark Sorry for annoying you with my obvious mistake for thinking you had steadyness issues but that doesn't sound 100% steady to me but what do I know, I must learn to read posts correctly. I will not give you a lecture as you put it but if it is keen on retrieving then it is easy to over come, the dog just doesn't understand what your are asking him to do so make him understand!!!! Good luck in finding your answer, I am sure someone will know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stiv24 Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 You have been offered excellent advise although you obviously don't think so. You just can't help some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanRM Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 im only a 1st dog training novice, but i have just got past this level with advice from family and friends. Im not sure if its the "right" way to go about it but it worked for my dog. i would get her to sit and i would crouch next to her, gently holding the scruff of her neck i threw the dummy and if she went to go i would hold on and insist that she sat until i told her otherwise. then slowly got it that i would reduce the contact with her i.e. just fingers touching the back of her head then added the distance i was away from her. but before i could do this.. I would get her to sit 1st of all... then attempt to walk a few meters around her (after replacing her about 10x). Got to the point where i could walk 200m or more by walking as far as this then walking back straight past her and going to her. One thing i learnt of a retired pro was to throw the dummy and i myself collect it with the dog sitting (varying it by doing this then throwing it to another area). he told me to do this way with about 1 in 4 retrieves... im guessing this makes the dog unsure weather it should get it thus waiting for a command to do so??? As i said im not sure if that's the way to do it but it has worked a treat for my dog and she is 8 months Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggone Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 hey people, quick update, ollie is getting on GREAT with his training, he has, heel, stop, Drop (as in lay), release, hold, and all the basics, down to a T, NOW for the question...basically, im ready to move on to retrieving with him, i play Fetch with him whilst out on his walks and when im in the garden and such, but basically, when i throw the toy/dummy he just bolts Straight after it, now i have already started in this part of training but i am having trouble, now as i said, when i throw the dummy he bolts Straight after it, this i tried to kerb by using the lead, i have him on the lead next to me, then i throw the dummy, he trys to bolt after it but i keep the tension on the lead, and then when i release him, he has lost intrest and just sort of looks at me, OR walks out a bit and then turns and looks at me as if to say "so what am i doing?" any ideas of what i can do to stop this? i think starting with him on the lead next to me is a good place to start, but its that he loses interest when i dont release, him, any ideas are welcomed.... ATB Mark I've got plenty of ideas how to stop it, but after your patronising reply to Creccamarsh, I wouldn't want you to misconstrue my suggestions as training tips. Sorry couldn't help, but if you fancy a trip to my place, I have 7 dogs all at various stages of training, we might both learn something. Andy (Peterborough area) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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