Hulse Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 i have a friend who is coming shooting with me on my permission he does not have a sgc so i was wondering i know he can shoot with my shotgun if im with him but can he use it on the land if im not there with him ? is there a distance ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky-shot Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 he can only shoot if the land owner is there and gun owner i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SXPhil Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Wot he said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulse Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Wot he said does the land owner have to be there in sight or just on the land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) does the land owner have to be there in sight or just on the land Your friend must be under direct supervision of the land owner. Also, are you insured? Edited July 12, 2009 by harfordwmj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulse Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Your friend must be under direct supervision of the land owner. Also, are you insured? i am insured via basc yeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 i am insured via basc yeh Good good, just checking. :yp: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulse Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Good good, just checking. :yp: only just got it as only just got permission been out today an got 2 crows 1 pigeon and a rabbit just off walking around im loving it, is basc the best one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzy518 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 The subject of lending a mate who has not got sgc your gun while on your permissions has been a regular subject on here which has been debated to death. Different counties police forces interpret the law differently so that what may be acceptable in one county is not necessarily ok in the next. To be 100% sure I would suggest you contact your FEO and put the question to him. Also chec with the landowner that your permission also extends to your mate. BASC insurance is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 only just got it as only just got permission been out today an got 2 crows 1 pigeon and a rabbit just off walking around im loving it, is basc the best one I'd be careful about taking someone on your permission too soon. Fair enough, if you know the landowner really well, but he or she may not want strangers out shooting with you. I'd be careful you don't end up annoying the landowner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulse Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'd be careful about taking someone on your permission too soon. Fair enough, if you know the landowner really well, but he or she may not want strangers out shooting with you. I'd be careful you don't end up annoying the landowner. thanks for the advice, the last thing i want to do is upset him it too long enough to get the pemission lol, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatGun Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Some good advice there ! One area of land I shoot has a strict condition to me shooting there..... I shoot alone. This makes it awkward for me to bag large numbers of rabbits on the lamp as I could do with someon to help pick-up, gut etc. This is due to people in the past bringing guests without asking. On a couple of occassions these" guests" decided to turn up without asking ,bringing other "guests" with them. Always get the confidence of the landowner first then ask politely if you could bring someone else down. Some arent fussy, but some are. Just use common sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulse Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Some good advice there ! One area of land I shoot has a strict condition to me shooting there..... I shoot alone. This makes it awkward for me to bag large numbers of rabbits on the lamp as I could do with someon to help pick-up, gut etc. This is due to people in the past bringing guests without asking. On a couple of occassions these" guests" decided to turn up without asking ,bringing other "guests" with them. Always get the confidence of the landowner first then ask politely if you could bring someone else down. Some arent fussy, but some are. Just use common sense thankfuly my landowner said i could bring a friend, however i need to text him prior to coming so hopefully will prevent anyone else turning up, good job i have unlimited texts lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 it doesnt have to be the land owner, as long as its the occupier of the land - no legal definition yet what the occupier is tho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 it doesnt have to be the land owner, as long as its the occupier of the land - no legal definition yet what the occupier is tho! "Another way to shoot shotguns and even rifles without a certificate is when you are accompanied by the landowner or his agent, (e.g. game warden), shooting on his land, using his weapons, within the limitations of the authorities on the certificate, for that weapon. However, as a non certificate holder, you cannot borrow another person's gun, if he is not the occupier of the land you intend to shoot on." this is what Herts police say in their FAQ's now its pretty vague and it would be interesting to know if anyone borrowing a gun under supervision has been prosecuted as the term agent is pretty vague. Are you an agent if you are carrying out his pest control for instance. Best check with your FEO as to how they interpret it but even that isn't 100% as in the event of an incident it would be down to the officer who came out and if he wanted to charge you then him and the CPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...showtopic=49501 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanClark Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Butting in again! The LAW is clear - 'a person, not having a certificate, may borrow a gun from the occupier of land and use it under their supervision'. 'Occupier' has been extended over the years by Court definitions so that it now includes a person who has the shooting rights - or permission to shoot over the land, so any person with a certificate and permission to take someone else on to the land to shoot can allow a friend to borrow their gun and shoot with it under their supervision. 'Under their supervision' has also been clarified by court decisions, and the most up to date definition I can find is 'within sight and sound, and with a degree of control if needed.' The fact that some Police forces may try to have their own local version of this is irrelevant - the courts will follow the LAW, not the local police policy. Once again, that is why all of our members have the legal fees insurance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 blimey an actual answer thats a very rare thing on here :look: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SXPhil Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 He isn't using the land owners gun though So how will he get the borrowed gun to the "land" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy33 Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Butting in again! The LAW is clear - 'a person, not having a certificate, may borrow a gun from the occupier of land and use it under their supervision'. 'Occupier' has been extended over the years by Court definitions so that it now includes a person who has the shooting rights - or permission to shoot over the land, so any person with a certificate and permission to take someone else on to the land to shoot can allow a friend to borrow their gun and shoot with it under their supervision. 'Under their supervision' has also been clarified by court decisions, and the most up to date definition I can find is 'within sight and sound, and with a degree of control if needed.' The fact that some Police forces may try to have their own local version of this is irrelevant - the courts will follow the LAW, not the local police policy. Once again, that is why all of our members have the legal fees insurance! I would say that clears things up, :look: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 He isn't using the land owners gun though So how will he get the borrowed gun to the "land" in that context you don't need to as being "the agent" apparently has been clarified to mean if you have the right to shoot then in effect you are the landowners agent so can lend your own gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanClark Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 He would be using the 'occupier's' gun - which at all times is within sight and sound of the 'occupier' - who would of course bring it along for him. remember the 'occupier' can be the landowner, a tenant of the land such as a farmer who rents the farm from an estate, or the occupier of the shooting Rights - in fact any person authorised to shoot on the land is the 'occupier' for the purpose of this section of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SXPhil Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 i have a friend who is coming shooting with me on my permission he does not have a sgc so i was wondering i know he can shoot with my shotgun if im with him but can he use it on the land if im not there with him ? is there a distance ? So I guess the answer to the original question is NO am I correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveH Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 'Occupier' has been extended over the years by Court definitions so that it now includes a person who has the shooting rights According to the Home Office Firearms Law Guidance of 2002: "The term “occupier” is not defined in the Firearms Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning." It goes on to 'suggest' that police forces 'may' wish to use the definition in section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, which states that ‘“occupier” in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’. The guidance is therefore helpful but doesn't appear to be definitive, especially as it adds that "on some occasions though, where the status of a certificate holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the chief officer may need to consider seeking the advice of counsel". Of course, there may have been court cases on this point since 2002, in which case I for one would be interested in the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 So I guess the answer to the original question is NO am I correct? he can use if if youre there and he's under your supervision. cant hand it to him and let him ****** off on his own though, think about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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