12gauge82

The difference is unless you know who will and won't reoffend, which of course you don't you are in effect gambling with innocent peoples lives. Again there's a difference, to be convicted of murder, it needs to be proved that you intended to kill someone, if you accidentally run someone over through bad or dangerous driving, no intent is needed.

I agree with you on Mays deal, I'd actually rather remain than see that. If hard Brexit (I.e leave the EU) comes off the table and we can't have a free trade deal (the EU will make that impossible, which to be fair is thier choice) by default will leave the only option on the table of remain.

There is of course no such thing, I used that terminology as it is what the media use, to clarify it means leave the EU and is the same as saying, hard brexit, wto brexit and means to not remain, like a soft brexit would be. You can't leave a club then start a new one with nearly the exact same rules as the old one and claim we've left, it's nonsense.

I was just going to answer the same, no one in power who believed in brexit was given the chance by our government to actually implement brexit, so they can hardly be blamed for the delay and complete mess the country no finds itself. If for arguments sake JRM had taken the top job, enacted us leaving and our economy sank I'd say remainers were perfectly right to blame the Brexiteers.

I'm not projecting anything, you are, I'm saying leavers voted for leave and remainers voted remain knowing full well the consequences. I again point out that when we joined in the original referendum, it was to join the common market with 7 other countries of similar standing, it was basically a free trade deal, no one then knew what we had joined or what it would morph into, a 30 year sealing order was put on it under the official secrets act, so if anyone didn't know what they voted on it was when we initially joined. There were two options, the country voted leave, to leave the EU means leaving the club and its rules which to any sane person would mean leaving the customs market, the single market, ending free movement of people and stopping the UK payment and EU court supremacy, we were told that before the referendum and the alleged consequences if we did, so it really is that simple. If the government never intended to action a leave outcome they shouldn't of had a referendum, but they did, so they need to action it, to claim that the country didn't know that voting leave would, shock, horror result in us leaving EU membership is ridiculous! A clean Brexit!

I see you've again chosen to ignore my point that the county knew exactly what it voted for. The fact there could be a handful of people who regret their vote is irrelevant, there will obviously be some people on both sides out of the millions that voted who would vote a different way, that would be true of any vote, election or referendum. You still haven't answered mine either 😂

I would put a further restriction on a death penalty of "proven beyond any doubt" otherwise it defaults to the lower test of "beyond reasonable doubt" which for murder should mean a whole life sentence.

You've chosen to ignore my earlier reply, the UK population knew exactly what they were voting for and in fact, we knew a damn side more than when we voted to join what was the common market in the first place. People are sick of it for two reasons, one is some remainers who don't believe in democracy and want to see the vote overturned, the other is people who voted leave and want to see the countrys decision and the largest vote in history respected. I hope your right about your last paragraph, but I like ditchman have genuine fears over that, I think looking back at history can teach us a lot about what happens when the people are stood on and ignored.

I appreciate what your saying but we don't live in a perfect world where everyone can be fixed, although I'd like to see that happen, I don't think we should play Russian roulette with future innocent victims by releasing potentially very dangerous people back on the streets, to put it another way, let's protect decent people before proven offenders.

The way its going I tend to agree 😂😂😂

Do you think 18 years is reasonable? they'll be out before they're 40, the lad who was killed, his family and friends will never be free from the pain caused even if he was not much better walking around with that knife in the first place. More importantly, when those guys are released what's to say they won't kill someone else and this time it'll be someone innocent, the stats would say they are likely to offend further, even if that doesn't mean an actual murder, though I certainly wouldn't rule it out, in my opinion, you take someone's life you should do life, or be executed, as crule as some would find that, it means no more risk to the public.

No I don't have concrete reasons, but then common sense would say there's at least some there who would choose remain under any circumstances, my point was we haven't all agreed that it was dispelled as you stated. Hard brexit was on the table before the referendum, it was on the table at the general election and how many times did TM say "brexit means Brexit", "no deal is better than a bad deal"? Hard brexit is also the only way of delivering on the Brexit referendum if the EU wouldn't give us a free trade deal, they stated before the referendum and all the way through, that a free trade deal was impossible, therefore only leaving a hard brexit as an option, so it is exactly what was voted for, "soft brexit" is what was never discussed and was only invented after the referendum went the "wrong" way. Anyone can sign any petition they want and can express any opinion they want, free speech is or should be one of this countrys most important values, but there's a difference between, you, for instance stating we shouldn't leave, or ignore the referendum result and parliament actually doing it, if we don't leave the EU and when I say leave, I mean leave the the EU club and not set up another club with practically the same rules, democracy is dead, its simple, but just like a barrister would in a court case, its being complicated to frustrate the Uks decision to leave by MPs who are putting their own personal views before that of the Country, it's outrageous! If an ex leave voter changes their mind that's obviously fine, but how can they, there can't be another referendum until the first ones been enacted, that decision was made nearly 3 years ago and still they refuse to honour the decision, can you honestly not see the glaring issues and implications to the future democratic standing of our political system if we don't leave? For me, that is what brexit is now about, do I live in the UK or is it really no different to North korea.

I already said in my last post, of course anyone can sign any petition they want, my annoyance is with those in power who are holding up an irrelevant petition as an excuse to try and overturn the result of an official referendum that obviously supersedes it. I genuinely hold no annoyance with anyone who wishes to remain and they should be allowed to express opposing views, what should never be allowed is for those in power to ignore a straight forward democratic vote because they don't like the outcome, that's a dictatorship not a democracy.

I am a huge believer in freedom and democracy, of course you can sign any petition you wish. The point is, it's irrelevant, it's an issue that has just had a nationwide vote and the result is leave, the politicians needs to deliver on it. Anyone holding a petition up as a reason for another vote or demanding brexit is blocked, either directly or indirectly (like revoking article 50 for instance) is simply trying to overturn democracy.

The only concern regarding the referendum is that Parliament is refusing to action the result. Call it whatever you want, a hard, wto, clean ect brexit, but if the EU won't give us a free and sensible trade deal, then a "hard" brexit is exactly what was voted for, so again, what is the point to that petition, the debate should have been settled with the official referendum?

Which is why we had an official referendum, you know, the largest vote in our country's history, the one where leave won. So tell me, what's the point of an online petition on a subject that's already been voted on and settled by the entire UK population?

Spot on walshie

Couldn't agree more, no excuse for it.

I agree mate, no place for threats on either side, although I do understand why there's anger and emotion involved. Whichever side of the argument people are on, I believe politicians have acted disgracefully.

If they're going to review Shotguns, I'd say it's the cartridges rather than the guns they should look at, there's little need for slug and I'd argue even less for buckshot, but I'm not advocating that either, just pointing out they don't seem to understand what they're talking about.

I would back Jacob Rees Mogg if he took the top job, (which I'm sure he won't) but other than that, I will literally support anyone other than the cons or labour, hopefully Nigel will have his new party set up and support will grow over the next couple of elections. I can categorically say, without a genuine leaver at the helm, I will never vote Conservative again and I know many who feel the same.

This is what brexit has become for me, it is now far bigger than leaving the EU, it is now a question of whether we live in a fair and democratic country, 8 can honestly say hand on hart, had remain won, I wouldn't have been over the moon, but I'd have accepted it and fully expected to stay in the EU (although the bias remain campaign did annoy me because I didn't think it was a fair fight). Although I disagree, I fully accept that people can and do have a different opinion to me, believing that remaining would make more economical sense, what I can't get my head around is that remain lost the vote and they'd be happy to see the referendum result overturned, the implementation of that has repercussions far beyond anything anyone's seen politically in this country in generations, I feel it makes a mockery of those who have died fighting for freedom (I'm sure many on here like me have lost family members). To overturn what was the largest exercise of democracy this country has ever seen would destroy the fabric this country is built from and anyone who supports that should in my opinion have a think about the consequences.

Why not, every other tactic to stop brexit has been tried.

Depends, some might have their eye on a future job for life in the bloated EU, but I would imagine most simply view anyone wanting to leave as an xenophobic, racist, little Englander, which is of course complete nonsense, but then political correctness has been out of control for years in this country and I think part of it is an extension of that, its a bit like a virtue signalling competition with who can be the most inclusive, when in reality they are small minded by excluding the rest of the world in favour of the EU.