suburban shooter

Was liking the idea of 13.4 grain .22 until you said shallow wound; how shallow is shallow as I am keen to find optimum killing pellet for squirrels. Shallow high energy dump is great for head shots but will that mean only one lung penetrated if body shot or will it get heart as well or does shallow include second lung ? On what size of squirrel ? Have found that .177 7.9 grain Accupell , Powapell and Destroyers kill big squirrels better than small ones (heart/lung) Have found that .22 Accupell transfer lots more energy than Powapell (same weight .14,3 grn different shapes ) Powapell causes two sucking chest wounds even if heart missed = death.

Thanks for your speedy and detailed response. I had thought that i was alone in thinking that light is right but then Longbower came in with the 13.4 Sovereigns and he talks the truth. The lightest that I have used in .22 are the H and N Sniper Lights at 14 grains and they are brilliant. I am using Crossman Powapell and they are really good in the wind but don't transfer energy as well as round nosed Accupells at the same weight (14.3 gn). They over penetrate if energy transfer is your goal but if penetrating the vitals is your aim then they are great.

Snoozer they are cast and then machined and then lubricated with Napier lube as are all Crossman / Webley pellets they don't mess about and I am looking forward to your assessment of them. What are you going after with them ?

Correction folklore

Thanks Ultrastu I am now using a Gamo Phox in .22 I have spent the last 10 yrs shooting .177 and am now using the same types of pellets in the .22 format It seems that we are shooting pellets designed by and for the European and USA markets which both have much higher foot pounds legal limits; H and N specify 7.9 grain pellets for sub 12 lbs rifles in .177 this equates to 14.3 grains in .22 Why oh why do people keep on recommending pellets that are optimum for 18 ft lbs rifles in the UK ? How light is optimum for .22 in the UK ? Also for .177 At what point does a heavy .177 equal a light .22 ? For each type of quarry there must be an optimum as there is with deer calibres You have done the maths and the shooting so I think that you are well placed to teach us all because I hear lots of twaddle peddled as established fact when it is really myth and folklaw !

Mr Snoozer have you managed to get those Crossman Destroyers yet ?

In air rifles does the barrel length not affect the speed or the accuracy of the pellet ? I have always assumed that a longer barrel will allow greater speed and stability to be attained therefore resulting in faster and more accurate pellet leaving the rifle. So to labour the point is an Ultra just as accurate and powerful as a Scorpion ?

Forgot to list the one I got at my mum's last Sunday. 1327 You are dead right Walker 570 the silly season when they throw caution to the wind and just fill their faces with natural food came early this year but the beech mast has gone, the hazel nuts have gone, acorns have nearly gone and conkers are getting hammered. Sweet chestnut next. I think that they are going to clear the natural food a month early and so will be desperate by January.

I'm missing something too don't shoot the foxes and there won't be as many bunnies. Contraversial from a shooter but hey ho !

One small female last night 18 50 that's 16 from my back garden in a month 1325

Bigger is not always better .177 is better than .22 .338 lapua is better than .50 cal Messi is brilliant ! But I get your point life should be fun.

Ultrastu what was the expansion at 300m please Also what would the penetration be with solid bullet ? The shallow penetration with 17 HMR is surely due to bullet design am I wrong in thinking that a solid bullet would penetrate far more ? Back to BSA Ultras what is the difference in end result from an Ultra compared to a Scorpion !! Lots of questions sorry.

My reasoning on the wound cavity thing is based on my airgunning experience with grey squirrels. Mixed with a conversation with a military surgeon who explained why high velocity bullets make such terrible wounds from a small calibre such as .22 (5,56 mm metric) The bullet passes through the flesh at a faster speed than it's speed of elasticity. This means that unlike a punch from Mike Tyson that is slow and allows internal muscle and the vital organs to move out of the way ; the high speed projectile is faster than the ability of the flesh/organs to get out of the way and so the flesh in effect explodes causing a wound cavity. .204 fox rounds etc are notorious for turning the internal organs to soup . .177 light pellets do the same thing so even " runners " will die quickly if the pellet passes through vital organs. Those people that maintain that .177 runners die a horrible death over 2 weeks are talking absolute twaddle but unfortunately hold editorial positions within the shooting press.

Brilliant guys !! Nobody is mentioning sectional density I believe that .177 kills by speed and wound cavity whereas .22 kills by wound channel ( sub 12 ) . 22 FAC kills the same as .177 ( sub 12 ) just better ! Gonk it would appear that modern warfare thinkers have re discovered what people realised prior to the 1950's when they spent fortunes developing weapons that kill people with one shot; rather than the nonsense of one wounded enemy soldier takes up four or six to carry him off the battlefield. I once spent a couple of weeks with some Spetznatz who laughed at our Western values. The Russians don't care so it is better to kill them with bigger bullets.

I was watching University Challenge but it lost out over this discussion and that new gladiator programme probably has lower testosterone levels as well ! Has anyone got any advice about a good all round deer calibre that doesn't have to take reds Only joking but a future question that I will be asking.

Military bullets are full metal jacket not hollowpoint or softpoint hunting bullets which are designed to be frangible or varyingly frangible. Velocity, rifling twist rate and bullet weight and design make differences in stability which are a method of increasing wounding whilst staying within the rules of the Geneva Convention ( the reason for the full metal jacket ). The original American 5.56 bullet was 55 grain but the British went for 62 grains to make it more stable plus other modifications to make it penetrate better. Re JFK, clear your mind of what you know and watch the hit on his head with fresh eyes. The shot did not come from above. 7.62 x 51 NATO verses 5.56 x 45 NATO no contest the former puts the enemy down SLR all the way.

They need to supplement their diet with calcium or else they have disabled kits. This is why they will gnaw on bones, antlers and the West Lakes Squirrel Initiative put a calcium additive in their red squirrel feeders to enhance breeding success. I got three yesterday on the oak tree that I got three off last Saturday two males and a female. 1322

Too much blood drained out after death as the wound tract was cylindrical and didn't close over. They are only 7.9 grains so are fast and therefore not loopy.

I had an RWS LR 20 and they were accurate up to 40 m may not be as good in a shorter barrel the rifle was designed as an HFT comp rifle so had a match barrel .

22 since my last post; off the beech , hazel and now the oak. However they have finished feeding off the beech here now . 1318

Just reminded me that I had a spud gun when I was at primary school and it was brilliant. I wonder if you can still get them ?

I am in awe of your technical knowledge gentlemen hats off to you !!!

Bigger skirt = bigger **** sorry couldn't resist it

Well done that man and well done that boy !

Never used one on an air rifle but I don't shoot bunnies very often. Other than that I don't see any advantage to proper technique or shooting off a bag, arm ,tree, jacket on fence, car bonnet, branch, bag of sand, wheelie bin, etc