Fellside

Bismuth tends mainly to occur as a byproduct from refining lead, gold and copper etc. Its supply is therefore quite limited - hence the high price. The commodity price fluctuates between about £25 to £28 per KG. Then transport and processing in to pellets......?! You can see where this is going..... expensive! We need a metals boffin (that excludes me) to blend some elements - and come up with something more dense than steel. It doesn’t need to be up to lead densities, just somewhere between steel and lead would do.......also inexpensive. Anyone out there???

Wymberley, Your comments re tungsten are interesting. Concentrated tungsten alloys are ballistically better than lead. When ‘heavy shot’ was first available in the UK, I remember it killing wigeon on the foreshore at silly ranges (when I could hit them that is....?!). The problem currently however is that over 80% of the world’s tungsten comes from China - and they have decided not to sell the mineral ore. Instead they are ‘adding value’ i.e. selling finished products. The shot is phenomenally expensive. This isn’t helped by the USA forcing up prices by stock piling tungsten for potential future military use. Does anyone know of an old disused tungsten mine for sale?

I will follow the evidence base re terrestrial lead shot use - and will therefore not use steel unless legally obliged to do so. I certainly won’t change to because ‘pseudo eco warriors’ imagine they know best or for reasons of political appeasement. Thanks for these observations - very interesting. Yes agreed the way forward appears to be non plastic ‘type’ wads. As for lead I’m afraid I can’t agree with you unless new evidence dictates other wise.

You’ve hit the nail on the head - R and D budget is a fraction of the big boys. I respectfully disagree with your take on this. When I travel (until recently?!) to Europe or the USA, virtually all I see is plastic wads. I haven’t noticed any ground breaking innovation re new environmental products. I would like to be proven wrong with a huge choice in successfully developed ‘biowads’ flooding in from overseas (just for the record, I don’t like plastic wads). Unfortunately we are far from this ideal currently. Let us hope we have new and exciting choices in the near future as part of the global anti plastic movement. My comments above - if you pick up the context - is that we are simply not any where near ready for the changes proposed.

Two things to perhaps consider. 1. There is very little science behind the drive towards non lead - as evidence re terrestrial lead shot issues is inadequate at best. The lead phase out is mainly based on political appeasement and not robust data. 2. The Uk represents a very small part of the global cartridge market - which is currently dominated by lead shot and plastic wads. Most of our main UK brands are ‘loaders’ using imported components. Eley (Maxam) being the notable exception. They are therefore not in a position to innovate re cartridge technology - being more reliant on what the rest of the world make. Hence, for all concerned, there is a pressure to change beyond reasonable expectation.

Thanks Conor - great job.

I agree that some of this lead shot is theoretically ingestible by terrestrial fauna. However actual evidence of impact is scant to say the least. Also, over time, lead pellets (and other heavy metals) generally descend through the soil strata, where they cease to become bio-available. The idea that we have ‘year-on-year’ surface tonnages of shot building up, is not an accurate depiction. Also, there are many soils where lead occurs naturally anyway - so where does that leave us? I completely understand the lead concern as it can be a potent neurotoxin, however it is only bioavailable in certain forms and circumstances. When, how, why, what? There are two many questions and not enough answers. That is why we need high quality robust data - good research is urgently required. If impacts are proven, I would then be willingly guided by evidence, rather than by a ‘pseudo-eco press gang’ using panic power to attack shooting.

Sadly those wads aren’t really disintegrating over time. On grass systems they tend to become part of the grass matting - i.e. the grass tends to grow over them. On cultivated land they become part of the soil strata. In essence, we just need to stop using them, as they are incredibly persistent in most environments. Water courses are littered too. I find lots of them in rivers when fishing. Also, the assumption that plastic always patterns better is a myth. Many plastic wads fail to open at the muzzle consistently and patterns can be highly variable. I would urge people to test a few good quality fibre cart’s - they are impressive. Nobody who kills high pheasants regularly with them ever wishes they were using a plastic wad instead.....!!!

Yes they’re great. I used those for about 10 years. One day the gun shop supplied me with a thousand 30 gram 5s in error, instead of the 32 grams I’d asked for. By the time I got home and realised, it was too late to change them. I thought it was a disaster as I had to use them the following day. However, I found that there was no difference in lethality (as you say if I did my bit). I did notice though that they were a little more pleasant - i.e. softer shooting. Also slightly cheaper. Anyway I’ve bought them ever since. As an after thought to my cartridge ramble, I hope we all get to use more of our favourite cartridges this year, whatever our magic formula might be.....?!

As I have not seen robust data on the health impacts of human ingested shot (non currently exists) and evidence is scant for terrestrial avian impacts, I will continue using lead and removing pellets from meat/ birds I consume. However, I am more than happy to follow the evidence if it leans towards a non-lead direction. I think clearly we need some good research on terrestrial lead shot use and this is desperately lacking. Currently the drive to reduce or ban lead shot appears to be centred around unproven presumptions. Looking towards the American experience though - I am quietly encouraged by their successes with steel. We shall have to see what the future holds. Who knows where we will end up. My crystal ball is a little hazy.....?!

A previous contributor on this thread (sorry can’t quite remember who it was) made a valid point re silly big cartridges - it’s down to experience . . . or the lack of it. I’m lucky enough to shoot regularly where pheasants are driven off high sided valleys with tall trees. Some birds - nearly always the first few in the drive - are exceptional. It’s hard to estimate a precise height, but 60 plus yards wouldn’t be exaggerating. For all I know they could be 70 or more. As the beating team descend further down slope towards the guns, the birds get progressively lower, but still very good. I can absolutely confirm that 30 grams of true English number 5 lead (2.8mm) with enough choke and a tested quality pattern, will kill these birds stone dead in the air. The old adage’ “when your on them - your on them” comes in to play here. The 5s penetrate perfectly well, even way after the pattern has gone. Pattern quality seems to be the key, not massive shot in excessive loads. By the way we average 75 head per day (8 guns) and are more focused on quality than quantity.

Sorry I misunderstood you - trying to help. Happy we got there anyway. Good we can crack on as normal with magpies. Imagine how frustrating it would be, if you were looking after your little patch of England and a magpie flew in to range ...... and you couldn’t take the shot....?! I hope that day never comes!!

Hi Old’un It’s definitely on GL40. There’s a “yes” next to the magpie under the heading, “Conserving endangered wild birds” A handy way to access this is to log on the the BASC website, then go to general licence icon, then the new GL40. I’ve read it over a couple of times. It’s there in black and white, unless I’m going completely mad ..... always possible of course...?!

We’ve just had to study this all very carefully for our syndicate let day. Our visiting guns live in a tier 2 ..... and our shoot is in a tier 3. After much deliberation and advice from experts, the day went ahead. There wasn’t a legal issue at all re travel. However we had Covid protocol on the shoot day pretty well nailed down. Needless to say no elevenses or drinks etc. The testing birds put a smile on their face anyway.

Old’un I’ve just realised you might have been looking at GL42. Have a look at GL40. You might find the latter will give you more legal confidence. Happy magpie hunting.

Just had a read through. It would appear you can continue as normal with magpies - including Larson traps etc. The key purpose is, “to protect endangered species.” We’ve all got a few of those around. There’s a lot of waffle about using non lethals first. However this is helpfully contradicted a few lines later with: “You are not required to use alternative, lawful methods under condition 1(a) and 1(b) where the use of such methods would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances.” It’s almost as though they’ve included content requests from the bunny huggers (sorry stakeholders), and then had them nullified by content from the org’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s how the document evolved.....?! Personally I’m relieved that we have robust GLs again. Good news for us and bad news for the burgeoning magpie population. Well done to our shooting org’s!!

Scully is right. Lots of people misunderstand the 50 ft rule. It is merely an arbitrary distance for judgement in court (should a case be brought) and not a legal requirement. “It is an offence to discharge a firearm within 50ft of the centre of a public highway, whereupon a person is killed threatened or injured” Highways Act. In other words don’t cause any one to feel threatened (that’s the one that’s a little grey and open to interpretation), definitely don’t injure or kill someone....and your legally in the clear. However, there are legal pentameters......and, well, decent behavior. Most people would consider discharging a shotgun close to a busy road (or housing) as a little antisocial and not quite the done thing.

Yes - for sure. 👍

This really isn’t complicated - just crack on (obviously in season). Use whatever legal means you wish. A sub FAC air rifle would be the most fun though - and safest option re your domestic setting. Happy hunting!

Digging deeper now: it would seem the 3km zone has activity restrictions and the 3km to 10km outer zone is for surveillance. All the details needed - now on the BASC website.

Yes agree. Have done this also. More of us should challenge their mantra. As you have discovered - a reasonable approach is the way forward. It’s also important to do this with MPs, the BBC and press etc. I feel this is often left to ‘the org’s’ - but many individuals can have quite an impact.

Great! we just have to ensure that Defra’s interim licence - re the 500 metre zone - is workable.

Here you go - hope the link works. There is a 10km control zone around the Northallerton site. The only ‘game bird’ restriction I can find - is on releasing game. Have a closer look - as there might be restrictions also on removing birds from the control zone....? Apologies again for the initial confusion. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/939582/TCZ-declaration-northallerton-IP5-DPR-2020-36.pdf

Sorry - I thought the question was about Covid / driven pheasants. Its front of mind at the mo’ - just been researching it. I can’t honestly answer re the bird flu outbreak. I can only say, in the past they’ve used exclusion zones around outbreak farms.