Lack of registered shoots in certain regions.......

[Nicky T]

Before this post/thread gets hijacked unecessarily, I'm fully aware that registered shooting isn't everyone's cup of tea; but for others it adds a competitive element that "social" shooting doesn't quite achieve.

 

At the end of the day I don't think it matters what type of shooter you are; we ALL have a vested interest in the safe promotion of shooting sports in general and everyones thoughts and views on how we can improve the current state of shooting sports in the UK are relevant, regardless of whether or not you are a CPSA/BASC member etc

 

So back to business:

 

It's not uncommon to hear a moan about the lack of registered shooting in certain areas of the country; Essex and the North of England are particularly barren at the moment, or a rumour that a local ground is thinking of stopping to hold registered shoots at their ground in the future, such as Catton Hall. Aside from the moans and digs at grounds and the CPSA, what, if anything, is anyone doing to try and rectify this?:wacko: :wacko:

 

I personally don't think for one second that it's right and am sure that both ground owners and the CPSA will have made comments in the past that they wish they could reverse but suspect that stubborness and pride will have a lot to do with why we currently have to do a 150 miles round trip to a do a decent registered shoot. All I know is that i don't want that to increase to 250 miles because I didn't do something about it when I could have

 

There's a North of England EGM (Emergency General Meeting) tomorrow evening in Harrogate which will hopefully throw some light onto the current situation up here and all being well provide a lifeline for things to get back to how they used to be IF a Northern CPSA Committee can be elected and maintained in the future.

 

I've heard a lot of speculation that Sporting shooting isn't going to be well represented at the EGM and consequently could suffer in the future, so with that in mind I'm willing to make the effort to go along and find out what it's all about. If I'm able to I'll gladly put myself forward for the committee and try to make a difference too.

 

What are the rest of you doing?

 

p.s. if anyone wants a lift to the EGM tomorrow from the Manchester area PM me

[Chard]

Well done that man. I hope you can get onto the committee Nick, I believe you would do a great job.

 

I believe that the CPSA is responsible for the demise of registered shooting, simply due to their arrogance. I know ground owners can be an awkward lot and they probably don't always do things the way they're supposed to with the administration of these shoots and I'm sure it must be frustrating for the CPSA to keep them in check. I'm sure Catton Hall were very irritating in their ongoing failures to get correct scores submitted to the CPSA (you know yourself that there were problems every time they held a comp ). However, I'm sure that the CPSA could have offered training assistance to smooth this out rather than falling out and wielding the big stick. I don't know if this is what the problem is, but I'd bet money on it. The same stick-wielding arrogance caused the de-registering of Worsley following complaints from a couple of turkeys over at willywaving.com. It was all unnecessary, they should be going out of their way to avoid confrontation in minor disputes, because the fact is that ground owners don't give a toss about them. The CPSA still seem to labouring under the illusion that everybody is going to jump when they shout. Well they're not. In my opinion, they are no longer in the driving seat. The CPSA need clay shooting grounds a lot more than the grounds need the CPSA. The CPSA probably don't like that fact, but it is a fact and they need to get used to the idea. They need somebody (probably like you) who can visit grounds and try and get them on board again, not with a big stick, but with offers of assistance, training of staff etc etc etc.

 

The game has changed, the CPSA hasn't. It's a dinosaur, run by ******** with their heads up their harrises. Time for change.

 

Nick - me and Anni are Cheshire, as far as the CPSA are concerned, do we have any voting rights/clout at the Harrogate punch-up?

Edited January 20, 2010 by Chard

[Mungler]

The thing about the CPSA is that it is just a body that organises when shooting will take place, where and then the collection of the scores. How difficult can that be?

 

Ground owners have worked out that good grounds don't need the CPSA to fill the car parks up, so why should they bother with the hassle, and from what I understand it is a major headache for them.

 

Also, (and for example) the local Essex ESP shoots are rammed every weekend and wouldn't be able to cope with an influx of out of town registered shooters.

 

Tricky one.

[Nicky T]

Nick - me and Anni are Cheshire, as far as the CPSA are concerned, do we have any voting rights/clout at the Harrogate punch-up?

 

As far as i'm aware you wouldn't have any

[Mungler]

Would the ground owners consider getting more involved in the CPSA at regional and then national level?

 

If they play the game right I would have thought that it would be beneficial to them in the long run, mind you (as per the above) if their car parks are full and there are queues at the stands then why take on the hassle of registered events?

Edited January 20, 2010 by Mungler

[BlaserF3]

I agree with Chard about the CPSA's attitude towards grounds, Kelbrook were told some stands were not safe and Blackpool were fed up of giving them money and getting nothing in return.

 

They say that they are the Governing Body for Shooting, but how can they govern something that they do not own?

[Nicky T]

The thing about the CPSA is that it is just a body that organises when shooting will take place, where and then the collection of the scores. How difficult can that be?

 

Ground owners have worked out that good grounds don't need the CPSA to fill the car parks up, so why should they bother with the hassle, and from what I understand it is a major headache for them.

 

Also, (and for example) the local Essex ESP shoots are rammed every weekend and wouldn't be able to cope with an influx of out of town registered shooters.

 

Tricky one.

 

Totally agree that it shouldn't be that difficult, but politics seem to rear their ugly head and dilute common sense on occasion.

 

Affiliation to the CPSA seems to be a hassle for some ground owners, who I am sure have their reasons. Those reasons (IMO) are exactly what the CPSA should be trying to uncover....

 

The fact that local ESP shoots are rammed is a positive thing, let's worry about the out of townies when we get to that stage

[Nicky T]

Would the ground owners consider getting more involved in the CPSA at regional and then national level?

 

If they play the game right I would have thought that it would be beneficial to them in the long run

 

I think that regional level is where we need the CPSA to be stepping up a gear; the distribution of the regions is far from uniform at the moment with the likes of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Merseyside etc all bundled into the "Northern Region", whilst Cheshire seem to operate perfectly well as their own self-sufficient region

[MC]

Mungler has it bang on,

 

Why would a ground owner want to go jumping through hoops to put on a registered shoot and have to give some of his revenue away, when his shoot every sunday morning is rammed out and all that cash is for himself?

 

I know what line I would take and it would be the same as theirs.

[Chard]

Another unpalatable fact is that, even when grounds have ditched the CPSA, we all still need the system that the CPSA have set up. For instance Hodnet and the Essex Masters etc are still classification-based with prizes for AAA, AA, B etc. The CPSA run the classification system and we're all using it as a yardstick, even the shoots that are not registered. As far as I'm concerned, this means that we need to keep this system. It is a good system, not perfect, otherwise there would be no such thing as sandbagging, but that is not restricted to this sport, there are golfing sandbaggers and cycle racing sandbaggers too.

 

It's easy to say that it would be simple to replicate the classification system and we don't need the CPSA to do it, but who IS going to do it? Would it be the CTSA or CPSA Mk 2? We might as well try and get the one that we've got to work

 

Another thing is that, if these small grounds in Essex are rammed out every week, then good, I agree, no reason to change. But nobody is saying that every ground in the country needs to be holding CPSA shoots. If they just had, say, two in Essex, two in Lancashire etc, then that would be good. The rest can carry on doing whatever they want to do. The CPSA just needs to be making a real effort to get a couple of good grounds in each county on board and keeping them on board with sweeteners, training, assistance and support. (not big sticks). The other thing is that these grounds don't need to be holding registered shoots every 5 minutes, once a month would be good, so they can still do their corporate stuff and social shooting every other day they're open.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Chard

[Nicky T]

Mungler has it bang on,

 

Why would a ground owner want to go jumping through hoops to put on a registered shoot and have to give some of his revenue away, when his shoot every sunday morning is rammed out and all that cash is for himself?

 

I know what line I would take and it would be the same as theirs.

 

Out of interest what do expect the difference in revenue would be?

 

Could it possibly be offset by the additional cost of entry a to registered shoot?

[Chard]

Mungler has it bang on,

 

Why would a ground owner want to go jumping through hoops to put on a registered shoot and have to give some of his revenue away, when his shoot every sunday morning is rammed out and all that cash is for himself?

 

I know what line I would take and it would be the same as theirs.

 

There is no need to give REVENUE away to the CPSA if they charge the day ticket pittance and charge the right amount in the first place.

 

Also, I think there's more to it that that. I believe that when a ground holds registered shoots, they get frequent visits from many shooters for "training" or practice purposes before a shoot. When Worsley used to hold registered shoots, you would often see competition shots there on other days, having a look at the set up and trying it out. You don't see them now. I think it's short-sighted for grounds to witter on about giving revenue away, perhaps they're not charging enough.

 

As a member at Worsley, I now find that I visit less and less, now that I've got into shooting competitions. If they still held registered shoots, I would still be an "active" member, whereas unfortunately, I am usually elsewhere. Not all, but many clay shooters eventually move on to competition shooting, or fade away. I couldn't have continued just doing social shooting, it would have bored me eventually. Unfortunately for grounds like Worsley, it now means that their membership naturally fades away or moves on, whatever you want to call it. I'm not sure that they take this natural wastage into consideration when they make the decision to ditch the CPSA, but it is happening. I've spoken to several old Worsley regulars on the registered circuit, who are doing the same as me.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Chard

[Catamong]

The fact is that some grounds like running Registered Sporting shoots, others don't, it's that simple, and it's their prerogative, nobody can force them to become CPSA affiliated, it's entirely down to the individual ground owner.

 

Herts is in the same situation as Essex, there isn't a single ground that now runs registered shoots, and there are fewer "biff" shoots as well, so the Essex boys actually have a far greater choice of "straw balers" than do us Herts men.

 

There is a whole host of grounds in the Midlands that all run Registered Sporting shoots, Kibbo, Northampton, Kingsley, Duvvy, Shuggy, Keggy, Grange, you're literally spoiled for choice, they're all within an hours drive of each other, a Mecca for Sporting shooters.

 

I'm afraid if you want to shoot Registered comps and live in the Greater London area, you've got to travel, I regard a round trip of 150 miles as "close to home".

 

The grounds that run Registered shoots that I go to do it because they make money out of it, otherwise they wouldn't do it, the extra admin simply isn't worth the aggro. These grounds attract a hard core of regulars who generally only want to shoot Registered events because they want an objective measure of their performance against their fellow competitors. Not only that, they want to be able to represent their County, Region or even their Country in the sport that they love, there can be no greater achievment..??

 

At the last Registered event I shot, on 3 Jan, there were exactly 100 entries for the event, all CPSA members. This club, (4 counties in Berkshire), runs the same course in the afternoon as a re-entry event, open to all comers. They had just 7 entries, OK, I know it was bitterly cold but it just goes to show that there is a real demand for Registered shoots over non Registered events.

 

I'm afraid one of the biggest stumbling blocks is the massive egos that some ground owners have when dealing with the CPSA, who are simply there to ensure that the event is run in accordance with their rules, (this is where Worsley went wrong), they don't like any outside interference, it's "their way or no way", which is a shame, not only that, it's costing them money as a result, but they're too dumb to realise it.

 

Cat.

[Chard]

I'm afraid one of the biggest stumbling blocks is the massive egos that some ground owners have when dealing with the CPSA, who are simply there to ensure that the event is run in accordance with their rules, (this is where Worsley went wrong), they don't like any outside interference, it's "their way or no way", which is a shame, not only that, it's costing them money as a result, but they're too dumb to realise it.

 

Cat.

 

 

I'm sure you're right about this, in many cases anyway. But......

 

The way I see it, is that it's like a bloke and his horse. Horse slows down, he hits it with a stick. Horse continues to slow down, he continues to hit it with a stick, increasingly hard. Eventually it drops dead. "That showed you, you ******" he says, as he starts walking

 

Are the CPSA going to continue to beat grounds with a big stick even though the writing is on the wall and there eventually either won't be any or there won't be enough to make a viable national network? Or can they try a different approach? At the end of the day, unfortunately for the CPSA, I still think it boils down to the fact that they need grounds more than the grounds (think they) need the CPSA

[Catamong]

Yes, good point, perhaps the perceived lack of support from the CPSA is a direct result of the lack of Sporting representation at Senior / Board level, i.e. they're all skeet and tarp shooters, and have no knowledge of Sporting..??

 

Who's fault's that.................??

 

Sporting shooters, of course, for their failure to get involved.

 

Good luck to Nicky T, he'll need it.

 

Cat.

[Nicky T]

Yes, good point, perhaps the perceived lack of support from the CPSA is a direct result of the lack of Sporting representation at Senior / Board level, i.e. they're all skeet and tarp shooters, and have no knowledge of Sporting..??

 

Who's fault's that.................??

 

Sporting shooters, of course, for their failure to get involved.

 

Good luck to Nicky T, he'll need it.

 

Cat.

 

Thanks Cat

 

I'll need more than luck - I need a Lancashire CPSA Member to second the proposal of me joining the committee for starters - anyone willing to do that?

[Chard]

I think the other problem that the CPSA have is that they're trying to govern the sport like the FSA governs financial services. If you want to sell financial services in the UK, you have got to be registered with the FSA - it's not a choice. The FSA rule with a rod of iron, just because they can. If you want to dig in and try and do your own thing, they will shut you down. I sometimes feel that the CPSA are trying to govern like the FSA, but the big problem that they have is that grounds don't have to be registered by the CPSA to exist and survive. They don't have to do what they're told. Therefore it automatically becomes a two way thing, it needs co-operation. Stamping feet and de-registering grounds just means that competition shooters lose more venues. Nothing else comes of it, it's negative and self-destructive.

[Chard]

Thanks Cat

 

I'll need more than luck - I need a Lancashire CPSA Member to second the proposal of me joining the committee for starters - anyone willing to do that?

 

 

I've sent a PM to Craig, he's Lancashire. I think he's got a lot on at the moment, so could be tricky. I don't suppose he could vote "in absentia" could he?

[Nicky T]

I've sent a PM to Craig, he's Lancashire. I think he's got a lot on at the moment, so could be tricky. I don't suppose he could vote "in absentia" could he?

 

I've just done the same - he'll be bamboozled with his new popularity

 

Auntie is the lady in the know regarding the intracacies of voting

[Mungler]

As Cat says, looking at the regions, unless you are a hardcore shooter (and there are less of them than say strawbalers) then if you live in Essex or Herts why would you join the CPSA if there is not a single ESP registered shoot in your County? You would immediately be committing to 150 mile round trips each Sunday to get anywhere near to justifying your membership.

 

There is just no incentive to join the CPSA if you are a normal weekend shooter in Essex or Herts; and these people make up the majority of the CPSA's target market.

 

The stats put together by Orac show that most Herts and Essex CPSA members join up for one year, shoot one registered event and are then never seen again (and presumably don't renew their subs). The CPSA in Herts and Essex probably live off the subs of people that get a shotty license at Xmas and at the same time join the CPSA.

 

The CPSA need the ground owners. If the CPSA had 2 or 3 decent grounds (which could be developed and built up) in Herts and Essex then it would follow that CPSA membership and interest in Herts and Essex should increase.

 

From what NickyT is saying, this issue isn't just with Herts and Essex.

[Catamong]

I can't follow Chard's comparison of the CPSA alongside the FSA.

 

I'm damn glad the FSA do rule the financial sector with a rod of iron, this Country is now full of scammers and conmen, and more arrive every week by boat and plane, the regulatory services are fighting a losing battle, more power to them..!!

 

The CPSA always has had a problem appealing to the "grass roots" shooter, who dabbles in rough shooting and straw balers, what incentive is there for him to join, he has no interest in serious competition shooting, why should he fork out £50 a year on CPSA / BASC membership when it can be much better spent on Lottery tickets and Beer, it's a no brainer really..??

 

Perhaps we ought to follow the lead of other Countries, and introduce a competence test before a gun licence is issued, together with proof of membership of a recognised shooting body, hopefully it would thin out the number of idiots that post on this forum who can't see anything wrong with "re-stocking" some land with rabbits that have been eradicated by mixy..??

 

Cat.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Catamong

[Chard]

I can't follow Chard's comparison of the CPSA alongside the FSA.

 

It's just that clay grounds have a choice. They don't have to involve themselves with the CPSA in order to trade.

 

Companies that want to sell financial services have no choice but to be regulated by the FSA, otherwise they're not allowed to trade. This means that the FSA can dictate everything to the industry. They have absolute power.

 

I just believe the CPSA seem to think they have the same absolute power over our sport, but they don't, because ground owners have a choice.

[MC]

I can't follow Chard's comparison of the CPSA alongside the FSA.

 

I'm damn glad the FSA do rule the financial sector with a rod of iron, this Country is now full of scammers and conmen, and more arrive every week by boat and plane, the regulatory services are fighting a losing battle, more power to them..!!

 

The CPSA always has had a problem appealing to the "grass roots" shooter, who dabbles in rough shooting and straw balers, what incentive is there for him to join, he has no interest in serious competition shooting, why should he fork out £50 a year on CPSA / BASC membership when it can be much better spent on Lottery tickets and Beer, it's a no brainer really..??

 

Perhaps we ought to follow the lead of other Countries, and introduce a competence test before a gun licence is issued, together with proof of membership of a recognised shooting body, hopefully it would thin out the number of idiots that post on this forum who can't see anything wrong with "re-stocking" some land with rabbits that have been eradicated by mixy..??

 

Cat.

 

Problem with that though Cat is the numpties would just join the cheapest half baked shooting organisation they can find and the responsible shooters would be forced to join an organisation that maybe they don't want to.

[DSPUK]

as far as I am aware there are only about 25k numpties in the shooting world.

 

dave

[Catamong]

Problem with that though Cat is the numpties would just join the cheapest half baked shooting organisation they can find and the responsible shooters would be forced to join an organisation that maybe they don't want to.

 

Well, the idea would be that any body supposedly representing the interests of shooters would have to meet certain minimum standards, I can't see a scenario whereby shooting organisations are popping up like private bus companies, obviously BASC and CPSA would, (hopefully) lead the bunch by a mile. :unsure:

 

The problem arises at the straw bale events when the local hotshot invites his mates along to show how good a shot he is, they obviously want to have a pop at a few clays, but they're not members of any shooting body, of course they don't have insurance, or any proof of even basic gun safety, most of them don't even know which end of the gun to stick in their shoulder, they're just doing it for a bit of a laugh.

 

What does the shoot organiser do when these guys are waving their £20 notes under his nose,............ say "sorry lads, you're not members of CPSA / BASC / Mungshot / CAVgun" or whatever, "so I can't let you shoot"............Hmmmm....I don't think so, and this is where the whole system falls down...??

 

Cat.