Am I right in thinking this...

[Colster]

Before I had my FAC, I could shoot my mate's rifle (.22LR) on land that we both had permission on when I was accompanied by him (he has an open licence but the land is cleared for .22LR by the FLO anyway)

 

I now have a closed FAC (without a mentoring condition), so can I shoot on land that hasn't been surveyed if I am with an open cert holder AND use my own gun?

 

Just curious as I'm currently trying to get some land cleared that comes under a different FLO and it's taking ages. I know I could shoot there regardless using his rifle but seems a bit daft that I could use his and not my own.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Colster

[Luckyshot]

Simple answer is "NO" you cant shoot any land that hasn't been cleared previously by the police, it dosent matter who you are shooting with if you have a closed ticket you are stuck until it is checked out unless you have a condition stating that you can shoot under supervision of an open fac holder.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Luckyshot

[Dekers]

Simple answer is "NO" you cant shoot any land that hasn't been cleared previously by the police, it dosent matter who you are shooting with if you have a closed ticket you are stuck until it is checked out unless you have a condition stating that you can shoot under supervision of an open fac holder.

 

 

It does seem daft I know but that's it...my lad did, and does, shoot on all sorts of bits of my land using any gun I choose to let him BEFORE he had a FAC of his own. He got his own FAC/SGC and was restricted where he could use his, so we ended up in the crazy situation where I could legally give him my .308 to wonder around with but he couldn't use his own .22lr!!!

 

A word with his Firearms department "eventually" resolved this issue and they agreed he could use ANY of HIS guns when out with me, even if the land is NOT cleared....my FAC is Open and Conditioned for just about everything!!

[Colster]

Thanks guys, I treasure my FAC and would never do anything to risk it, luckily every bit of land I have added so far has always been checked out already but this one seems to be taking an age as it has to go through 2 different FLO's.

 

We're planning to ferret it during the day and lamp at night, as it's a 2 hour drive we won't shoot it that often and when we do we'll make a day of it... maybe I just go on the lamp that night and let my mate shoot instead!

[wacker]

Sorry to hijack to thread - probably the same answer!

 

I have FAC .22LR AND .22Hornet, Friend has Fac as well - Can i use my rimmie with my shooting buddy who has the permission (it's cleard for rimfire and centerfire) His is in the shop being repaird (he has an open ticket)

 

 

Think i have a closed ticket.

 

Cheers

[Colster]

Sorry to hijack to thread - probably the same answer!

 

I have FAC .22LR AND .22Hornet, Friend has Fac as well - Can i use my rimmie with my shooting buddy who has the permission (it's cleard for rimfire and centerfire) His is in the shop being repaird (he has an open ticket)

 

 

Think i have a closed ticket.

 

Cheers

 

You'd be fine in that scenario as the land is cleared for you to shoot on a closed ticket as long as the land owner either gives you permission or has authorised your mate to bring other shooters on to his land.

[SSS]

You can only use guns that are licensed to and owned by you. No-one else can give you a firearm to use, on your land, their land or any other.

You cant legally give someone who has an FAC your gun to use on your land.

If you have a restricted ticket, you can only use it where you have told the FLO you will be shooting and it must be cleared before you shoot.

You cant be accompanied by an open FAC holder to use their gun.

 

Unless it is an estate rifle which I doubt it will be, no-one except the owner can use it

[Dekers]

You can only use guns that are licensed to and owned by you. No-one else can give you a firearm to use, on your land, their land or any other.

You cant legally give someone who has an FAC your gun to use on your land.

If you have a restricted ticket, you can only use it where you have told the FLO you will be shooting and it must be cleared before you shoot.

You cant be accompanied by an open FAC holder to use their gun.

 

Unless it is an estate rifle which I doubt it will be, no-one except the owner can use it

 

Re the BOLD bit above....

 

I have to suggest you are a little mixed up there, there are plenty of ways even a NON FAC holder can Legally borrow and use a rifle and shotgun.....bit of a long read but extracts from the 1968 and 1988 Firearms Acts

 

EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE

Shot guns

6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows

an individual, without holding a shot gun

certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the

occupier of private premises and use it on

those premises in the occupier’s presence.

The presence of the occupier is normally

taken to mean within sight and earshot of the

individual borrowing the firearm. The term

“occupier” is not defined in the Firearms

Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning.

However, the Firearms Consultative

Committee in their 5th Annual report

recommended that the provisions of section

27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in

relation to any land, other than the foreshore,

includes any person having any right of

hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or

fish’. In the absence of any firm definition

for firearms purposes, it is suggested that

each chief officer of police may wish to make

use of this definition. On some occasions

though, where the status of a certificate

holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the

chief officer may need to consider seeking

the advice of counsel. Section 57(4) provides

that “premises” shall include any land. The

borrower may be of any age but an offence

may be committed under section 22(3) if a

minor under the age of 15 is not supervised

by a person over 21 years of age.

6.15 Similarly, section 11(6) of the 1968 Act

allows an individual, without holding a shot

gun certificate, to use a shot gun at a time

and place approved for shooting at artificial

targets by the chief officer of police for the

area in which that place is situated. As the

approval of such time and place is prescribed

by law and there may be duty of care issues

involved, chief officers may wish not only

to satisfy themselves that such events are

properly conducted and supervised, but also

to establish that there are no public safety

issues involved. When an exemption is

granted, the chief officer should advise

the organiser that they are responsible for

ensuring, so far as is practicable, that

adequate precautions are taken for the safety

of the participants and any spectators. Shoots

at which participants hold certificates do not

require an exemption under section 11(6).

Organisers operating in conjunction with

business, such as corporate entertainment,

will have additional responsibilities under

the Health and Safety at Work Act.

 

Borrowed rifles on private premises

6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

of private premises and to use it on those

premises in the presence of either the

occupier or their servant without holding a

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It

should be noted that this gives slightly more

flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than

is permissible with the use of a shot gun

as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the

borrowed rifle can also be used in the

presence of the servant of the occupier.

However, the occupier and/or their servant

must hold a firearm certificate in respect of

the firearm being used, and the borrower,

who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their

servant), must comply with the conditions

of the certificate. These may include a

safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,

territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the

1968 Act defines “premises” as including any

land. The effect of the provision is to allow

a person visiting a private estate to borrow

and use a rifle without a certificate. The

exemption does not extend to persons under

the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.

There is no notification required on the

loan of a firearm under these circumstances.

A borrowed rifle should not be specifically

identified as such on a “keeper’s” or

“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term

“in the presence of” is not defined in law

but is generally interpreted as being within

sight and earshot.

6.17 Section 16(2) of the 1988 Act provides

for a person borrowing a rifle in accordance

with section 16(1) of the 1988 Act to

purchase or acquire ammunition for use in

the rifle, and to have it in their possession

during the period for which the rifle is

borrowed, without holding a certificate. The

borrower’s possession of the ammunition

must comply with the conditions on the

certificate of the person in whose presence

they are and the amount of ammunition

borrowed must not exceed that which the

certificate holder is authorised to have in

their possession at that time. It should be

noted that the borrower may only take

possession of the ammunition during the

period of the loan of the rifle at which time

they will be in the presence of the certificate

holder. If the persons selling or handing

over the ammunition are not certificate

holders, it may be necessary for them to

see the certificate to satisfy themselves that

the terms of this section have been met and

that the amount of ammunition the borrower

wishes to acquire is no greater than that

which the certificate holder is authorised

to possess. However, the details of the

transaction need not be recorded on

the certificate.

[SSS]

I am under the wrong impression then, so you can legally use the landowners gun aslong as the landowner is present (estate rifle)

However, if you are not a landowner, you cant let anyone use your gun (as I stated earlier when I said "Unless it is an estate rifle which I doubt it will be, no-one except the owner can use it")

 

So you are telling me what I said already?

[Dekers]

I am under the wrong impression then, so you can legally use the landowners gun aslong as the landowner is present (estate rifle)

However, if you are not a landowner, you cant let anyone use your gun (as I stated earlier when I said "Unless it is an estate rifle which I doubt it will be, no-one except the owner can use it")

 

So you are telling me what I said already?

 

No chap I'm not at all, I seem to recall this is what you said above...

 

You can only use guns that are licensed to and owned by you. No-one else can give you a firearm to use, on your land, their land or any other.

You cant legally give someone who has an FAC your gun to use on your land.

 

What I am telling you is that you are a little mixed up!!........

 

.....I said it was a long read, worth looking at again.....it's NOT the Landowner, it's the "OCCUPIER", that could be the Landowner of course, but it is ANYONE who has the Hunting rights, ie your mate if he has the permission...opens the field up very wide, and nothing necessarily to do with "landowners Estate Rifles"!!

 

So ..if your mate is the "OCCUPIER" (has the hunting rights) he CAN lend you his rifle, even if you don't have a FAC at all.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Dekers

[SSS]

The occupier is whoever is in charge of the land, not who has the shooting rights, and as for a long read, I had to study it at college in January so I know

Edited February 14, 2010 by SSS

[Colster]

The occupier is whoever is in charge of the land, not who has the shooting rights, and as for a long read, I had to study it at college in January so I know

 

It does also include servant, I seem to remember that if you are shooting on the land and taking rabbits etc as "payment" then you fall under this category. What it doesn't make clear is if there is any difference when the person being lent the gun also has a FAC. I would guess there isn't any difference so I could legally shoot my mates gun on uncleared land as he has an open FAC but I couldn't shoot my own gun as mine is closed and the fact he has an open FAC makes no difference.

[Dekers]

The occupier is whoever is in charge of the land, not who has the shooting rights, and as for a long read, I had to study it at college in January so I know

 

 

Chill my friend...

 

You are more than welcome to believe whatever you like, but once again you appear confused...may I suggest you refresh your memory by reading it all again ...

 

and I have to suggest once again this statement of yours is incorrect...

You can only use guns that are licensed to and owned by you. No-one else can give you a firearm to use, on your land, their land or any other.

You cant legally give someone who has an FAC your gun to use on your land.

 

For reference...

The extracts I have listed are direct from the 1968 and 1988 Firearms Act, The 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act, Firearms Consultative Committee and the Home Office, Firearms Law Guidance to the Police.

 

Small Extract

 

The term

“occupier” is not defined in the Firearms

Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning.

However, the Firearms Consultative

Committee in their 5th Annual report

recommended that the provisions of section

27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in

relation to any land, other than the foreshore,

includes any person having any right of

hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or

fish’. In the absence of any firm definition

for firearms purposes, it is suggested that

each chief officer of police may wish to make

use of this definition.

 

This is still the current definition to the best of my knowledge, and certainly was up to about a year ago because........

 

This is what I had to explain to my lads Firearms Dept (different region to me), he had a closed ticket and was NOT able to shoot his .22lr on any of my land without it being cleared. After explaining to them it was perfectly legal for me to lend him my .308 to wonder around with (or even a Non FAC holder), they agreed it was daft and allowed him to use his gun on any of my land (even UNCLEARED) whilst out with me, as well as any of my guns of course, as I was the "Occupier" as I had hunting, shooting rights, I was NOT in charge of the land!!

 

ATB

Edited February 14, 2010 by Dekers

[Mr_Logic]

Absolutely right - scripture is as clear as can be without defining the term 'occupier' but for once the BASC and HO guidance agree - occupier is normally defined as anyone with permission to shoot there. Therefore so long as you have permission and the firearm is used under supervision (i.e. within earshot, that IS defined) then it's perfectly legal.

 

Anyone that says otherwise is wrong, until such time as a court or Statute may decide to clarify the term 'occupier'.

[Colster]

So basically, in my scenario, I CAN shoot my own gun on uncleared land if I'm with an open cert holder?

 

We both have written permission to shoot on this land from the landowner.

[SSS]

Give your FLO a ring mate, he will put you straight, no-one on here seems to know

[Dekers]

So basically, in my scenario, I CAN shoot my own gun on uncleared land if I'm with an open cert holder?

 

We both have written permission to shoot on this land from the landowner.

 

NO!!

 

The fact that you are with an Open FAC holder has no bearing on the situation.

 

The land MUST be officially cleared, even if you have been told it has been, a tel call or preferably a letter/email to your FEO to confirm this is required or you cannot use your gun.

 

If your pal has an Open FAC (making any ground clearance irrelevant) and is the occupier, he can lend you one of his guns to use in his presence, but you can't use yours. Yes, it's daft, but that's the way it is.

 

You too are an occupier (there can be as many as you want) but you cannot use your own gun on the land if you have a closed certificate until you know 100% is has been cleared by your Chief Officer of Police (just like it says in your conditions), you can never rely on what anyone tells you, you need to check! Once cleared you can shoot whatever of course, swap guns around between you as much as you want as well, as you both have written permission and are both the occupier!!

 

I know it sounds silly, which it is, and I have had more than a few debates about this with FEO's and shooters. Seems very few can grasp this but it's there in print in the Acts as I put up earlier!

 

PM me if you want to chat or clarify anything, I don't know all the answers but I know this one pretty well!!

 

Cheers!!

 

PS the odds are your FEO will not know, I have had to explain it to at least 2 myself!!

Edited February 14, 2010 by Dekers

[Paddy Galore!]

NO!!

 

The fact that you are with an Open FAC holder has no bearing on the situation.

 

The land MUST be officially cleared, even if you have been told it has been, a tel call or preferably a letter/email to your FEO to confirm this is required or you cannot use your gun.

 

If your pal has an Open FAC (making any ground clearance irrelevant) and is the occupier, he can lend you one of his guns to use in his presence, but you can't use yours. Yes, it's daft, but that's the way it is.

 

You too are an occupier (there can be as many as you want) but you cannot use your own gun on the land if you have a closed certificate until you know 100% is has been cleared by your Chief Officer of Police (just like it says in your conditions), you can never rely on what anyone tells you, you need to check! Once cleared you can shoot whatever of course, swap guns around between you as much as you want as well, as you both have written permission and are both the occupier!!

 

I know it sounds silly, which it is, and I have had more than a few debates about this with FEO's and shooters. Seems very few can grasp this but it's there in print in the Acts as I put up earlier!

 

 

this is correct, on a closed licence it will state that any land you shoot on will have to be cleared by the old bill, not an open licence holder.

if you already hold written permission for the land in question then it is up to you to contact the FLO to ask that the land be surveyed.

 

PM me if you want to chat or clarify anything, I don't know all the answers but I know this one pretty well!!

 

Cheers!!

 

PS the odds are your FEO will not know, I have had to explain it to at least 2 myself!!

[Colster]

NO!!

 

The fact that you are with an Open FAC holder has no bearing on the situation.

 

The land MUST be officially cleared, even if you have been told it has been, a tel call or preferably a letter/email to your FEO to confirm this is required or you cannot use your gun.

 

If your pal has an Open FAC (making any ground clearance irrelevant) and is the occupier, he can lend you one of his guns to use in his presence, but you can't use yours. Yes, it's daft, but that's the way it is.

 

 

 

PS the odds are your FEO will not know, I have had to explain it to at least 2 myself!!

 

Yes, I doubt my FEO will know, he's quite new and told me I'd have to wait until renewal to get expanding ammo for my .22LR - luckily the FLO overruled him and told me they put it on by default for rimfire applications where the usage is for Vermin.

 

I was going by what you said here:

 

This is what I had to explain to my lads Firearms Dept (different region to me), he had a closed ticket and was NOT able to shoot his .22lr on any of my land without it being cleared. After explaining to them it was perfectly legal for me to lend him my .308 to wonder around with (or even a Non FAC holder), they agreed it was daft and allowed him to use his gun on any of my land (even UNCLEARED) whilst out with me, as well as any of my guns of course, as I was the "Occupier" as I had hunting, shooting rights, I was NOT in charge of the land!!

 

...but I assume this was a special condition they added later?

[Dekers]

Yes, I doubt my FEO will know, he's quite new and told me I'd have to wait until renewal to get expanding ammo for my .22LR - luckily the FLO overruled him and told me they put it on by default for rimfire applications where the usage is for Vermin.

 

I was going by what you said here:

 

 

 

...but I assume this was a special condition they added later?

 

Precisely so, in cold hard print, so no debate!!

 

Edit...sorry, just replied quickly earlier I was rushing out.....

 

This has not set any precidents or changed any laws, it is just something I managed to achieve for my lad. The crazyness of the situation in mine/his circumstances (I have over 40 pieces of land and my lad often comes out with me) has led them to accept it.

 

To be fair he also had a LOT of experience under his belt with a lot of quarry, on a lot of land with Air, Rimfire, Centrefire and Shotgun, several shooting holidays, membership of my Rifle club and several freezers full of food, before he even got his FAC/SGC..actually about 11 years worth!

 

Oh yes ...and he can shoot a bit too!!

 

A prime example of why EVERYTHING in shooting should be treated individually and not as a "policy"!!

 

However, in anything close to similar circumstances it is more than worth a try for anyone else!!

 

Edited February 15, 2010 by Dekers

[markbivvy]

Give your FLO a ring mate, he will put you straight, no-one on here seems to know

Quite the opposite really, dekers has it spot on.

[SSS]

Sorry chaps but I am going to have to agree to disagree on this one. We had to learn about it a college and my FLO told me what I am saying. You are right about being able to use the landowners or occupiers gun, but the thing I am struggling to agree on is the definition of the occupier. What you are saying, is anyone with the shooting rights is the occupier, which is anyone with legal right to the land. This could include walkers on the footpaths, or builders if they are present. Look at it this way, if someone is building you an extension on your house, you give them legal rights to enter your property. Does this make them the occupier of your house...erm no.

Have a look at this link

I will carry on as I am doing and not risk any trouble, the last thing I want is to lose my FAC

Edited February 15, 2010 by SSS

[Dekers]

Sorry chaps but I am going to have to agree to disagree on this one. We had to learn about it a college and my FLO told me what I am saying. You are right about being able to use the landowners or occupiers gun, but the thing I am struggling to agree on is the definition of the occupier. What you are saying, is anyone with the shooting rights is the occupier, which is anyone with legal right to the land. This could include walkers on the footpaths, or builders if they are present. Look at it this way, if someone is building you an extension on your house, you give them legal rights to enter your property. Does this make them the occupier of your house...erm no.

Have a look at this link

I will carry on as I am doing and not risk any trouble, the last thing I want is to lose my FAC

 

 

Fair comment chap and each to there own, certainly no problem in being cautious.

 

No arguement about the definition you put up of occupier, but occupier can be defined in different ways for different situations, in this situation it is specifically defined as below!

 

As you see from the extract the definition as printed with specific detail in the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981..Their definition is what counts in this instance!!

 

Section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

 

This states that ‘“occupier” in

relation to any land, other than the foreshore,

includes any person having any right of

hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or

fish’

 

 

ATB!!

[Mr_Logic]

Your dictionary definition - 'one who has actual use or possession of a thing'

 

Therefore if I have the shooting rights (clear difference from a tradesman or someone that you reference) then I have the Actual Use of the land, and therefore am considered an occupier by your referenced definition.

 

SSS, you say : "This could include walkers on the footpaths, or builders if they are present." - How? They are in no way occupiers. They don't have use of anything; they are there for a specific task only. If you have shooting permission, you are granted a perpetual use of the land - shooting - which then terms you an occupier under every definition going.

 

Thereafter, the Acts are very clear that an occupier or their servant can allow the use of a firearm by a non-licensed, non-minor individual under their supervision.

 

I don't see how any FLO that actually knows the Law can say otherwise.