Taking a friend out with my spare rifle

[safetyfirst]

Hi,

 

I've had a SGC for about two years and have been able to take out friends with me rough shooting provided they remain with me at all times (IE, not in another field watching for rabbits, actually close by my side). As far as I understand it, this is perfectly legal.

 

I've just had my FAC granted and have a couple of questions!

 

1. If I have two rifles on my certificate, can I take a non FAC holder out with me with my other rifle provided they stick by my side, like I can with a Shotgun?

 

2. If one of my rifles is for vermin and the second .22LR I get on my ticket is for target shooting at a club, can I use the rifle (probably a 10/22) I obtained for target shooting as a vermin rifle as well, provided it's on the land my new FAC permits me on and I use the right kind of ammo?

 

3. This is a good one. At the land where I shoot, the farmer has a .22LR for vermin control as well, can he LEND me that second rifle so I can take a friend out vermin shooting on the land, provided I abide by the "stays close to you" rules my FEO mentioned?

 

Yours in anticipation of a flurry of wise answers!

 

Chris.

[Breastman]

Hi Chris,

 

The following is my opinion only and how i have conducted myself according to advice given to me from my shooting organisation and local FLD. I would recommend you contact your FLD and shooting org for your own advice.

 

1/ Yes, providing you are classed as an 'occupier' of the land. This has been defined to me by my FLD as either the owner of the land or anyone who has shooting rights for the land, but as i'm sure someone will no doubt point out, this varies from county to county. They just have to remain in visual and/or hearing range, however unless you're shooting from static positions i wouldn't recommend both of you having a loaded rifle at the same time, even then be extremely careful. Your friend also has to obey all conditions on YOUR FAC.

 

2/ Unless the specific rifle is named your conditions i would say yes. E.g. If your conditions say something like, "The .22lr ammunition and rifle shall be used for shooting vermin and zeroing . . . .etc" you should be ok.

 

3/ It is possible for occupiers of land to lend rifles to non FAC holders as this regularly happens when people go on paid deer stalks. However i don't know if the registered holder of the rifle has to accompany the person who is using it. Hopefully someone else will know who's in that game. ##EDIT Sorry didn't read your question properly, i've no idea about that scenario##

 

Mark

Edited April 6, 2010 by Breastman

[Colster]

I think number 3 works something like this, as a FAC holder you could use the landowner's gun and your non-FAC'd mate could use yours but not the other way around.

 

It's a bit like if you have a closed FAC and your mates' is open you can shoot on land that hasn't been passed when you're with the Open ticket holder but you have to be using his gun.

 

As FEO/FLO's have their own interpretations of the laws you would always be safer to check with them anyway.

[safetyfirst]

Brilliant, thanks for your replies!

 

Chris,

[allthegearandnoidea]

I think number 3 works something like this, as a FAC holder you could use the landowner's gun and your non-FAC'd mate could use yours but not the other way around.

 

I don't think you can use the landowners rifle without him being present as you can't lend someone a rifle in the same way as you can a shotgun. A rifle has to be listed on your certificate if you are in posseion of it.

[vampire]

From what i have read,i would agree with whats been advised to you so far,but can you answer 100% that your mate will be insured for fac use if the worst happens

[Wrighty112]

Just to make sure... You can take a friend with you rough shooting with a shotgun and asking as they stay close they can use my spare shotgun even though he/she doesn't have a shotgun cert.

 

Sry to go off track a little just had a mate acompany me a few times an askedif I could allow him to use my spare shotgun.

[Mr_Logic]

I don't think you can use the landowners rifle without him being present as you can't lend someone a rifle in the same way as you can a shotgun. A rifle has to be listed on your certificate if you are in posseion of it.

True, unless the farmer is living on the land, in which case you could get away with it, providing you're in earshot, which is the accepted term of under supervision.

[Dekers]

You MUST obtain Occupier and or Occupier Servant status for these answers to be correct, the owner is also an occupier if he is living on the site! As an occupier under the owner (occupier) you can at the same time be his servant....All will be clear if you read below a few times

 

1. Yes

2 No, you can only use the gun for what it is conditioned for, if it says target then you can't use it for vermin, have a word with your FEO, this should be straightforward to resolve.

3 Yes

 

Bit of a read but direct quote from some of the legislation!

 

Extract from the Home Office Guidlines to the Police refering to Firearms Act 1968.

 

Shot guns

 

6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows

an individual, without holding a shot gun

certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the

occupier of private premises and use it on

those premises in the occupier’s presence.

The presence of the occupier is normally

taken to mean within sight and earshot of the

individual borrowing the firearm. The term

“occupier” is not defined in the Firearms

Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning.

However, the Firearms Consultative

Committee in their 5th Annual report

recommended that the provisions of section

27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in

relation to any land, other than the foreshore,

includes any person having any right of

hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or

fish’. In the absence of any firm definition

for firearms purposes, it is suggested that

each chief officer of police may wish to make

use of this definition. On some occasions

though, where the status of a certificate

holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the

chief officer may need to consider seeking

the advice of counsel. Section 57(4) provides

that “premises” shall include any land. The

borrower may be of any age but an offence

may be committed under section 22(3) if a

minor under the age of 15 is not supervised

by a person over 21 years of age.

 

6.15 Similarly, section 11(6) of the 1968 Act

allows an individual, without holding a shot

gun certificate, to use a shot gun at a time

and place approved for shooting at artificial

targets by the chief officer of police for the

area in which that place is situated. As the

approval of such time and place is prescribed

by law and there may be duty of care issues

involved, chief officers may wish not only

to satisfy themselves that such events are

properly conducted and supervised, but also

to establish that there are no public safety

issues involved. When an exemption is

granted, the chief officer should advise

the organiser that they are responsible for

ensuring, so far as is practicable, that

adequate precautions are taken for the safety

of the participants and any spectators. Shoots

at which participants hold certificates do not

require an exemption under section 11(6).

Organisers operating in conjunction with

business, such as corporate entertainment,

will have additional responsibilities under

the Health and Safety at Work Act.

 

Borrowed rifles on private premises

 

6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

of private premises and to use it on those

premises in the presence of either the

occupier or their servant without holding a

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It

should be noted that this gives slightly more

flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than

is permissible with the use of a shot gun

as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the

borrowed rifle can also be used in the

presence of the servant of the occupier.

However, the occupier and/or their servant

must hold a firearm certificate in respect of

the firearm being used, and the borrower,

who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their

servant), must comply with the conditions

of the certificate. These may include a

safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,

territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the

1968 Act defines “premises” as including any

land. The effect of the provision is to allow

a person visiting a private estate to borrow

and use a rifle without a certificate. The

exemption does not extend to persons under

the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.

There is no notification required on the

loan of a firearm under these circumstances.

A borrowed rifle should not be specifically

identified as such on a “keeper’s” or

“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term

“in the presence of” is not defined in law

but is generally interpreted as being within

sight and earshot.

 

6.17 Section 16(2) of the 1988 Act provides

for a person borrowing a rifle in accordance

with section 16(1) of the 1988 Act to

purchase or acquire ammunition for use in

the rifle, and to have it in their possession

during the period for which the rifle is

borrowed, without holding a certificate. The

borrower’s possession of the ammunition

must comply with the conditions on the

certificate of the person in whose presence

they are and the amount of ammunition

borrowed must not exceed that which the

certificate holder is authorised to have in

their possession at that time. It should be

noted that the borrower may only take

possession of the ammunition during the

period of the loan of the rifle at which time

they will be in the presence of the certificate

holder. If the persons selling or handing

over the ammunition are not certificate

holders, it may be necessary for them to

see the certificate to satisfy themselves that

the terms of this section have been met and

that the amount of ammunition the borrower

wishes to acquire is no greater than that

which the certificate holder is authorised

to possess. However, the details of the

transaction need not be recorded on

the certificate.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Dekers

[Dekers]

I don't think you can use the landowners rifle without him being present as you can't lend someone a rifle in the same way as you can a shotgun. A rifle has to be listed on your certificate if you are in posseion of it.

 

Not quite correct, have a look above, it does not have to be listed on your FAC, you can lend someone a rifle and technically the rules are more relaxed than shotgun!

 

The important term is Occupier, or the Occupiers servant. A Landowner may well be the Occupier, but strictly speaking the Landowner is irrelevant!