CIP proof for steel

[utectok]

Ok I know most 2 3/4" chambered guns can shoot steel "standard" loads but despite looking hard I cannot find out if a 3" chambered gun can shoot "high performance steel loads" or to put it another way is the steel fleur de lys a higher proof then the magnum 3" proof? I was going to test some loads but am unsure on this point.

Thanks Guys

Edited April 26, 2010 by utectok

[brian28]

CIP proof loads bought in this country are not high performance loads

there dumbed down for european market.

the yanks are using high performance loads dont think these have cip stickers on box

[anser2]

Ok I know most 2 3/4" chambered guns can shoot steel "standard" loads but despite looking hard I cannot find out if a 3" chambered gun can shoot "high performance steel loads" or to put it another way is the steel fleur de lys a higher proof then the magnum 3" proof? I was going to test some loads but am unsure on this point.

Thanks Guys

 

The max steel load you can put through a 3 inch magnum that is not steel proof is the 32gr 2 3\4 load. High performance loads need at steel proof "fleur de lys" . Having said that some American and Russian guns do not have the "fleur de lys" , but they are built to handle high pressures. I know some people who do use 3 inch high performance steel loads through a normal non steel proof 3 inch gun , but I would not recomend it.

[utectok]

Thanks anser2 that's what I wanted to know now ijust need to find a fibre load that size!

[Guest topshot_2k]

Remington stamp 'STEEL SHOT' on their 3" chambered guns which can handle 3" high performance steel

[utectok]

I belive the American proof is higher than cip least that's what i read

[UK fowler]

no that is not the case,CIP high performance proof is 1370 bar -19.870psi for a working pressure of 1050bar-15.229psi SAAMI is 965bar 13996psi this is for 31/2" 12. high performance 3" is the same in CIP if it is marked with a Fleur de Lys its 1370 if it is not it is an older gun with the old 1200bar proof for 900 bar lead loads.I know there are people useing older brownings ect with steel many shooters in the states still use A-5s with 3" steel it does depend on the gun in question what gun is it you have

Edited April 27, 2010 by UK fowler

[alexr]

This steel issue is a real worry.

 

1) I have three more modern guns only one of which is marked with the fleur d lys does that mean that the others are going to become obsolete or can it be tested to a higher standard?

2) the older guns I have, should I sell them now or hang on to them.

 

remind me why are we even considering this and who's stupid idea it was in the first place ? :blink:

[alexr]

Oh and is any one going to come out with some form of definitive guidance, as at the moment most of it is hearsay and innuendo. :blink:

[UK fowler]

This steel issue is a real worry.

 

1) I have three more modern guns only one of which is marked with the fleur d lys does that mean that the others are going to become obsolete or can it be tested to a higher standard?

2) the older guns I have, should I sell them now or hang on to them.

 

remind me why are we even considering this and who's stupid idea it was in the first place ? :blink:

not obsolete they just are not proofed for 3" HP steel all 23/4 shells should be fine no fixed choke tighter than half simples

[utectok]

no that is not the case,CIP high performance proof is 1370 bar -19.870psi for a working pressure of 1050bar-15.229psi SAAMI is 965bar 13996psi this is for 31/2" 12. high performance 3" is the same in CIP if it is marked with a Fleur de Lys its 1370 if it is not it is an older gun with the old 1200bar proof for 900 bar lead loads.I know there are people useing older brownings ect with steel many shooters in the states still use A-5s with 3" steel it does depend on the gun in question what gun is it you have

I have a 1995 3" chambered MC 686 beretta what bar do you think ?

[utectok]

no that is not the case,CIP high performance proof is 1370 bar -19.870psi for a working pressure of 1050bar-15.229psi SAAMI is 965bar 13996psi this is for 31/2" 12. high performance 3" is the same in CIP if it is marked with a Fleur de Lys its 1370 if it is not it is an older gun with the old 1200bar proof for 900 bar lead loads.I know there are people useing older brownings ect with steel many shooters in the states still use A-5s with 3" steel it does depend on the gun in question what gun is it you have

I have a 1995 3" chambered MC 686 beretta what bar do you think ?

[UK fowler]

the proof marks will be on the barrel but at 15years old im sure it will read 1200bar i would phone berreta and see what thay have to say,they may give you the thumbs up its a strong well made gun and in shotgun terms is a modern gun with chrome lined barrels new berreta shot guns are 1370bar the guns are the same there just proofed higher

[Floating Chamber]

Yes! 1370 bar for high performance steel cartridges.

[fortune82]

There is a lot of confusion over steel. I have been told by an experienced gunsmith that you can shoot 2 3/4 inch steel loads of any pellet size through any choke no probs. I have also been told by another gunsmith this is a big no no and only 1/2 choke or less. I stick to 1/2 or less. I have also been told steel would ruin my gun which was a load of **** also.

[utectok]

the proof marks will be on the barrel but at 15years old im sure it will read 1200bar i would phone berreta and see what thay have to say,they may give you the thumbs up its a strong well made gun and in shotgun terms is a modern gun with chrome lined barrels new berreta shot guns are 1370bar the guns are the same there just proofed higher

Thanks for that I guess I could get it reproofed not sure what it might cost though!

[Beretta28g]

As i understand it;

Your 3'' gun must be peoofed to 1370 bar for 3'' high performance loads.

Your 3.5'' gun must be proofed to 1790 bar for 3.5'' high performance loads.

Normal steel can be shot through any gun although crome lined helps reduce barrel damage.

Half choke (0.5mm/0.02'') is the maximum to use when shooting steel.

Just remember steel will not disfom as esily a lead, in the barrel or when striking the surfaces; this an lead to richochets/

 

Hope this helps

 

Beretta

[UK fowler]

There is a lot of confusion over steel. I have been told by an experienced gunsmith that you can shoot 2 3/4 inch steel loads of any pellet size through any choke no probs. I have also been told by another gunsmith this is a big no no and only 1/2 choke or less. I stick to 1/2 or less. I have also been told steel would ruin my gun which was a load of **** also.

this is where the problems are! if some gunsmiths dont know what the f##k there talkin about how the hell are shooter going to get good advice here are some facts for you.1/2 choke tend to give full choke patterns in steel so if your on a flight pond skeet and 1/4 is more than enough giving you 1/4 and 1/2 in a steel shell or there abouts. CIP recomend a max of 1/2 choke for safety and steel has been known to score the choke area on fixed full choke guns more so older guns with softer gun metal.most wad cups are that good in steel shot shells now that barrel scoring just does not happen my guns get some very hot handloads through them and the bores are still like the day they were made

[UK fowler]

1790bar ??news to me where did this info come from . check out terror chokes extra full and made for shooting steel

[MC]

1790bar ??news to me where did this info come from . check out terror chokes extra full and made for shooting steel

 

 

That is what I thought as well,

 

My 3 1/2" extrema is proofed at 1370 bar and has the fleur de lys. That is good enough for me.

[Beretta28g]

My 3.5'' auto has 1790 bar stamped on the barrel

[harpoonlouis]

Seem to be a few mixed topics going on here.

 

Steel shot in a shot cup won't contact your barrels and doesn't increase wear or scratch your barrels.

 

A piece of steel shot trapped outside the cup could scratch a barrel so should be watched out for but so should any defective cartridge. Low/high primer, poor crimp, scewed scrimp, unusually heavy or light weight etc, etc.

 

Heavier loads increase the momentum of the charge and therefore more back pressure builds up behind the shot charge as it resists being accelerated up your gun barrels. It makes no difference if the charge is steel or shot, it's the total weight of the shot charge to check.

 

Choke is a restriction on the barrel that the shot charge squeezes past. If the shot charge is steel then it resists being crushed by a factor of 2 to 3 times that of steel so it builds up more back pressure before it passes through the squeeze.

 

If you read the linked document from the Birmingham Proof House is can be seen that even low weight obstructions in a gun barrel can lead to pressures exceeding 3000 bar which make a nonsense of test pressures for even 3 1/2 in chambered guns. http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/obstructions.doc .

 

Bottom line is that if you choke a gun to the point where you create the effect of a restriction then you risk damaging your gun and anyone too near you.

 

Only the manufacturer of your gun can answer what choke you can safely shoot with what cartridge combo and only if you are shooting with their chokes and not a retro fit job.

 

I shoot steel all the time on clays through my Browning 325 and my Winchester 101 ( 3in 4 ton proof) so i am not for or anti steel but please ask the manufacturer.

[utectok]

Seem to be a few mixed topics going on here.

 

Steel shot in a shot cup won't contact your barrels and doesn't increase wear or scratch your barrels.

 

A piece of steel shot trapped outside the cup could scratch a barrel so should be watched out for but so should any defective cartridge. Low/high primer, poor crimp, scewed scrimp, unusually heavy or light weight etc, etc.

 

Heavier loads increase the momentum of the charge and therefore more back pressure builds up behind the shot charge as it resists being accelerated up your gun barrels. It makes no difference if the charge is steel or shot, it's the total weight of the shot charge to check.

 

Choke is a restriction on the barrel that the shot charge squeezes past. If the shot charge is steel then it resists being crushed by a factor of 2 to 3 times that of steel so it builds up more back pressure before it passes through the squeeze.

 

If you read the linked document from the Birmingham Proof House is can be seen that even low weight obstructions in a gun barrel can lead to pressures exceeding 3000 bar which make a nonsense of test pressures for even 3 1/2 in chambered guns. http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/obstructions.doc .

 

Bottom line is that if you choke a gun to the point where you create the effect of a restriction then you risk damaging your gun and anyone too near you.

 

Only the manufacturer of your gun can answer what choke you can safely shoot with what cartridge combo and only if you are shooting with their chokes and not a retro fit job.

 

I shoot steel all the time on clays through my Browning 325 and my Winchester 101 ( 3in 4 ton proof) so i am not for or anti steel but please ask the manufacturer.

very interesting cant get the link to work though

[utectok]

Also if the above is true then why can I blast 50gm lead loads (3") out of my gun and not 3" 36gm steel ones? Unless the steel is going a hell of a lot faster?

[harpoonlouis]

The link is off this page

 

http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/proof_memoranda.html

 

This is a WORD document link so it should try to open as a Download to your puter

 

Here it is again just in case

 

 

http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/obstructions.doc