Reloading .243

[Highlander]

We use to get a deal on Federal primium for the 22.250 at our local shop, they were £20 a box, the ticket price is now over £40!

 

I got two kids and a high maitenance wife to cater for! :blink:

 

Perhaps I should just kick her out and go back to the federal, my old man always said, "be careful of the pretty one's, they cost more"!

 

£40 over what 2 -3 years...JHC I wish my shooting was that cheap! I've got a low cost wife but 12 dogs to feed!

 

and as for the pretty ones your dad was wrong it's the ugly ones cost more...in plastic surgery!

[Dempy]

We use to get a deal on Federal primium for the 22.250 at our local shop, they were £20 a box, the ticket price is now over £40!

 

I got two kids and a high maitenance wife to cater for! :blink:

 

Perhaps I should just kick her out and go back to the federal, my old man always said, "be careful of the pretty one's, they cost more"!

 

 

£40 over what 2 -3 years...JHC I wish my shooting was that cheap! I've got a low cost wife but 12 dogs to feed!

 

and as for the pretty ones your dad was wrong it's the ugly ones cost more...in plastic surgery!

 

 

we use quite a lot, lol

[al4x]

if you used a .223 it would be far cheaper factory ammo wise :yp:

[Dekers]

Firearms act – Part I

 

 

Provisions as to Possession, Handling and Distribution of Weapons and Ammunition; Prevention of Crime and Measures to Protect Public Safety

 

Sec 3 – Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.

 

(3)It is an offence for a person to undertake the repair, test or proof of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, for any other person in the United Kingdom other than a registered firearms dealer

 

 

Thanks for that but which bit says you can't sell home loaded ammo to someone?

 

 

 

In order to sell ammunition it first has to be proofed in order to make sure it's safe. If you cant proof it, you can't sell it.

G.M.

 

 

GM

 

I'm not having a go here I'm trying to get this straight in my head, several people have posted that selling home loads is illegal. No part of the above says selling Home Loads is illegal.

 

..... it also says it excludes RFD, and I know one who make a living selling Home Loads, and even if it is correct (which I have serious doubts) ANYBODY can give a round to Birmingham to get it proofed.

 

Hence selling Home loads is NOT illegal, or seriously illegal as someone said!

:yp:

Edited June 22, 2010 by Dekers

[Dempy]

if you used a .223 it would be far cheaper factory ammo wise

 

:yp:

 

Are we crossing posts now? but I would have to buy a .223 and it would'nt be as good as my 22.250!

 

Anyway, I want the .243 for Roe.

[al4x]

Double post :yp:

Edited June 22, 2010 by al4x

[al4x]

You are the re incarnation of JR :yp:

 

As for the legality bit I can only really imagine it would come to light if you had a dodgy one and blew someones gun and face up

[Dempy]

You are the re incarnation of JR :yp:

 

As for the legality bit I can only really imagine it would come to light if you had a dodgy one and blew someones gun and face up

 

 

I got a feeling this could go on and on and on, I just read about the 1000 yard bench rest shooting, I was very tempted to post "I BET HE WASNT USING A .223"

[Graham M]

GM

 

I'm not having a go here I'm trying to get this straight in my head, several people have posted that selling home loads is illegal. No part of the above says selling Home Loads is illegal.

 

..... it also says it excludes RFD, and I know one who make a living selling Home Loads, and even if it is correct (which I have serious doubts) ANYBODY can give a round to Birmingham to get it proofed.

 

Hence selling Home loads is NOT illegal, or seriously illegal as someone said!

:yp:

Proof Testing of Ammunition and Explosive Powders for the Trade and Home Loader.

 

Under the rules imposed on Proof Houses in Europe and other countries, set by our governing body, the Commission Internationale Permanente (CIP).

 

Headquarters in Liege, Belgium - cartridge manufacturers are required to provide samples of their products to be subjected to test by the Proof House and, if satisfactory, may carry the Proof House and CIP mark.

 

Although the same rules do not apply to home loaders, given that their products cannot be legally sold in the interests of safety the Proof House affords those parties opportunity to batch test their ammunition to ensure that the associated breech pressures and velocities are within acceptable standards, . By so doing it removes the potential for weapons being damaged, thereby injuring the user or, even worse, innocent bystanders. Previous tests of this nature in the past have indicated the poor standards adopted by such parties and the lack of uniformity between rounds of ammunition.

 

Similar tests can be made on various powder batches or powder types.

 

The ammunition is tested in the Proof House Laboratory using modern test guns which are linked to a computer to provide graphical presentations.

 

Please write, fax or telephone for details

Edited June 22, 2010 by Graham M

[Graham M]

Previous tests of this nature in the past have indicated the poor standards adopted by such parties and the lack of uniformity between rounds of ammunition

 

I think that this bit was for government consumption and did what was needed to push the legislation through enabling the proof houses to get what they wanted…………. Our money.

G.M.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Graham M

[Dekers]

Proof Testing of Ammunition and Explosive Powders for the Trade and Home Loader.

 

Under the rules imposed on Proof Houses in Europe and other countries, set by our governing body, the Commission Internationale Permanente (CIP).

 

Headquarters in Liege, Belgium - cartridge manufacturers are required to provide samples of their products to be subjected to test by the Proof House and, if satisfactory, may carry the Proof House and CIP mark.

 

Although the same rules do not apply to home loaders, given that their products cannot be legally sold in the interests of safety the Proof House affords those parties opportunity to batch test their ammunition to ensure that the associated breech pressures and velocities are within acceptable standards, . By so doing it removes the potential for weapons being damaged, thereby injuring the user or, even worse, innocent bystanders. Previous tests of this nature in the past have indicated the poor standards adopted by such parties and the lack of uniformity between rounds of ammunition.

 

Similar tests can be made on various powder batches or powder types.

 

The ammunition is tested in the Proof House Laboratory using modern test guns which are linked to a computer to provide graphical presentations.

 

Please write, fax or telephone for details

 

 

CIP has no say at Westminster, this is like a club imposing rules, IT IS NOT LAW, therefore it is NOT illegal. Westminster makes the law in the country (OK sometimes Eupope) but CIP/the Proof Houses do NOT.

 

There is still NOTHING here that proves selling Home Loads is illegal!

 

What Act of Parliament and what section says selling Home loads is illegal?

 

What Act of Parliament and what section says selling Home loads is illegal?

 

:yp:

Edited June 22, 2010 by Dekers

[Graham M]

A convention between the 13 member states was signed in 1969, ratified and converted into law in each signing state, so that the rules can be enforced to assure that every firearm and cartridge on the market has successfully passed the compulsory proofing and approval.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Commission_Internat..._Feu_Portatives

 

G.M.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Graham M

[Mr_Logic]

Right then...

 

Firearms Act says that you commit an offence if by 'way of trade or business' you make ammunition without being RFD. That phrase is open to interpretation, but for me it says you can't make a living out of it. I think a few rounds here and there no problem, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE SOLELY OF THIS ACT. It's not my trade, or my business.

 

The CIP says that their convention was ratified into law, and so if this clause is the only bit in UK law (remember that European Laws get put into UK statute as well), then CIP doesn't cover this.

 

Also, I can find no reference to the proving of ammunition. There must BE one, so does anyone have a reference please?

 

Certainly, if you're an RFD, the Firearms Act does not prevent the manufacture and sale of ammunition. I know the RFD Dekers mentions has definitely had his sold loads proved, as he told me this himself. Interesting thread though.

[Graham M]

6. Ammunition approval

 

The C.I.P. also enforces the approval of all ammunition a manufacturer or importer intends to sell in any of the C.I.P. member states. The ammunition manufacturing plants are obliged to test their products during production against the C.I.P. pressure specifications. A compliance report must be issued for each production lot and archived for later verification if needed. The cartridge boxes must also be stamped with a C.I.P. approved number to allow quality/safety traceability according to ISO 9000 principles in case of quality problem.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Graham M

[Graham M]

You cannot get out of this as EU governments have ratified it.

You cannot sell you home loaded ammunition because you are not a RFD and it will not be proofed.

Anyone wanting to go down this route is freely able to do so. But if you are caught you will be shafted.

 

As I have already said. Buy the reloading components and sit and watch someone do it for you. And if one of his reloads blows your hand off, it’s your own fault, because I wouldn’t trust ANYONE else’s load through any of my rifles.

 

And now boys and girls I’m going to tell you a (true) story.

 

Around 8 years ago I used to be a regular on the GT forums, together with some really nice people. One day one of the members posted a picture of his rifle on the net. Not surprising I hear you say…but allow me to elucidate.

 

He had spent the previous day reloading for his 2 rifles. A Marlin .357 and a Sako .308. He spent a couple of hours loading up some .357 ammo’ using 7grns of Bullseye. Anyone who has ever loaded for pistols will recognise this as a fast pistol powder. He then put his powder away and got out a tub of Reloader 19…..and then had a nice cup of tea prior to loading up some .

308 rounds.

 

 

He went to the range and had an hour or so blatting away with his .357 before turning to the serious stuff; sighting in his deer loads.

 

He chambered a round into his .308 and pulled the trigger………..

 

He didn’t remember much about the next few seconds other than seeing a blinding flash and hearing a deafening boom. And when the smoke cleared he saw his Sako barrel had opened up like a Chinese lantern and his very expensive scope was now part of the roof (what was left of it).

 

Because he was using a Harris bipod to sight in with, his left hand was gripped around his right bicep, which was why he never lost it in the explosion.

 

A subsequent investigation found that he hadn’t loaded his .308 case up with 49 grains of R19 but had instead loaded them up with 49grns of Bullseye. He had in fact forgotten to empty the powder measure and replace it with the R19 and had come back from his cup of tea and simply re-calibrated the thrower to 49grns………

 

Now some of you may think that he was a complete fool. But he wasn’t. He was a mature man with an engineering background and many, many years of hand loading under his belt.

 

Now can you imagine what would have happened if one of you had asked this very, very experienced hand-loader to load up a hundred rounds for you.

 

Doesn’t bear thinking about does it.

 

G.M.

[Mr_Logic]

6. Ammunition approval

 

The C.I.P. also enforces the approval of all ammunition a manufacturer or importer intends to sell in any of the C.I.P. member states. The ammunition manufacturing plants are obliged to test their products during production against the C.I.P. pressure specifications. A compliance report must be issued for each production lot and archived for later verification if needed. The cartridge boxes must also be stamped with a C.I.P. approved number to allow quality/safety traceability according to ISO 9000 principles in case of quality problem.

I appreciate member states ratified it, but we need a piece of legislation to actually bring it into the statute book. I don't doubt this is correct, but I want to see the UK legislation that puts it into law.

 

Regarding your story, it's a scary one for sure. My golden rule is very simple, and it was taught to me by the guy who taught me to load - only EVER one powder on the bench at any one time. For anyone, ever.

[Dekers]

6. Ammunition approval

 

The C.I.P. also enforces the approval of all ammunition a manufacturer or importer intends to sell in any of the C.I.P. member states. The ammunition manufacturing plants are obliged to test their products during production against the C.I.P. pressure specifications. A compliance report must be issued for each production lot and archived for later verification if needed. The cartridge boxes must also be stamped with a C.I.P. approved number to allow quality/safety traceability according to ISO 9000 principles in case of quality problem.

 

 

Graham, this is getting boring, you keep quoting the rules of an international "club", I am not argueng with any rules the CIP may have.

 

That is NOT UK legislation and NOT UK law!

 

AND, once again, what has any of that above got to do with selling Home loads in the UK?

 

What Act of Parliament and what section says selling Home loads is illegal?

 

Cheers!

[Dekers]

You cannot get out of this as EU governments have ratified it.

You cannot sell you home loaded ammunition because you are not a RFD and it will not be proofed.

Anyone wanting to go down this route is freely able to do so. But if you are caught you will be shafted.

 

As I have already said. Buy the reloading components and sit and watch someone do it for you. And if one of his reloads blows your hand off, it’s your own fault, because I wouldn’t trust ANYONE else’s load through any of my rifles.

 

And now boys and girls I’m going to tell you a (true) story.

 

Around 8 years ago I used to be a regular on the GT forums, together with some really nice people. One day one of the members posted a picture of his rifle on the net. Not surprising I hear you say…but allow me to elucidate.

 

He had spent the previous day reloading for his 2 rifles. A Marlin .357 and a Sako .308. He spent a couple of hours loading up some .357 ammo’ using 7grns of Bullseye. Anyone who has ever loaded for pistols will recognise this as a fast pistol powder. He then put his powder away and got out a tub of Reloader 19…..and then had a nice cup of tea prior to loading up some .

308 rounds.

 

 

He went to the range and had an hour or so blatting away with his .357 before turning to the serious stuff; sighting in his deer loads.

 

He chambered a round into his .308 and pulled the trigger………..

 

He didn’t remember much about the next few seconds other than seeing a blinding flash and hearing a deafening boom. And when the smoke cleared he saw his Sako barrel had opened up like a Chinese lantern and his very expensive scope was now part of the roof (what was left of it).

 

Because he was using a Harris bipod to sight in with, his left hand was gripped around his right bicep, which was why he never lost it in the explosion.

 

A subsequent investigation found that he hadn’t loaded his .308 case up with 49 grains of R19 but had instead loaded them up with 49grns of Bullseye. He had in fact forgotten to empty the powder measure and replace it with the R19 and had come back from his cup of tea and simply re-calibrated the thrower to 49grns………

 

Now some of you may think that he was a complete fool. But he wasn’t. He was a mature man with an engineering background and many, many years of hand loading under his belt.

 

Now can you imagine what would have happened if one of you had asked this very, very experienced hand-loader to load up a hundred rounds for you.

 

Doesn’t bear thinking about does it.

 

G.M.

 

 

Can everyone stop saying its illegal, stop showing me rules from international clubs and stop saying Europe has ratified it.

 

If it is illegal in this county there is a Govenment paper trail that leads to a document that says YOU CANNOT SELL HOME LOADS IN THE UK.

 

SO, show me it!

 

Cheers!

[Graham M]

Graham, this is getting boring, you keep quoting the rules of an international "club", I am not argueng with any rules the CIP may have.

 

That is NOT UK legislation and NOT UK law!

 

AND, once again, what has any of that above got to do with selling Home loads in the UK?

 

What Act of Parliament and what section says selling Home loads is illegal?

 

Cheers!

Sorry but all I am doing is looking for these things myself and coming up with whatever I can find.

I would love to be able to say it’s all legal, but it isn’t for me to say and the only thing I could say to you is to get in touch with david.dyson@firearmsexpert.co.uk and see if he can shed light on the correct legislation.

G.M.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Graham M

[Dekers]

Sorry but all I am doing is looking for these things myself and coming up with whatever I can find.

I would love to be able to say it’s all legal, but it isn’t for me to say and the only thing I could say to you is to get in touch with david.dyson@firearmsexpert.co.uk and see if he can shed light on the correct legislation.

G.M.

 

 

GM, you have worked hard on this, much harder than anyone else that said it was illegal, your efforts are appreciated, if I see some UK legislation from anyone showing it is illegal I will accept it, until then it isn't.

 

ATB!!

 

Cheers!

[garyb]

Like most of firearms law... it's about as clear as mud!