Guest cookoff013 Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 i still wont entertain the idea of shooting 3s for pigeon. thats just silly. i know what your saying, i just dont like the idea of larger shot going in the countryside. the cip really should allow faster steel to be available. especially when "game" is involved. standard shotsizes 5steel should be more than enough for pigeon, some use 7s on them. as times move on, development of cartridges do too. lighter loads at quicker speeds at safe pressures. that is the way steel is going. either way 100pellets @ 30yards is going to ruin a pigeons afternoon. i wont be surprised if steel development changes again. in the good old days 1,1/8oz #6 shot many a clay. now 21gram is popular. will steel develop like that? i did try to work out a 1/2oz of steel #5s at 1600fps, if it could be done. 6s would be as good. (due to a calculating ftlb error earlier.) dont forget still, a #5steel is a big shot ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted July 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 Interesting info' - Thanks My own conclusions will have to wait. The pigeons have disappeared from our shoot for the time being so my four boxes of Gamebore #4 steel cartridges are still in the bag unused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 Indeed 3's are big, 5's will do the job i suspect as the OP found, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 All i can say is 3s in steel kill very very well at 40-45 yard pigeons and less damage to the meat than when hit by a tight pattern of 5s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 That is very interesting feedback anser2, thank you very much David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 would you guys shoot steel for pigeons if it could be had for £100 / 1000cartridges? if i shot enough to warrant getting a cheaper shell i would, no matter what it fired. i dont pigeon shoot, i have done, but never more than a box of shells used. so my oppinion doesnt count (for much). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 You can pick up steel 5s for under £180 / 1000 Express pigeon Specials (lead) are about £200 / 1000, Eley pigeon (lead) about £193, Gamebore clear pigeon (lead) for about £192 All according to one suppier whos web site I have Just Checked out. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 i crunched some numbers and you can certainly load cheaper. i regularly Just Check several places. mediocre performance steel, (that on par with the 1400fps stuff) can be loaded cheaper. £120 / 1000 unless i cant add up. (this is -cases of course.) the cheapest shells i have seen are diana steel for 3.00 a box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I have read on another forum about a chap who loads his own steel, and gets excellent performance out of them, certianly tweeks his MV above 1500! Best wishes D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joknob Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I have read on another forum about a chap who loads his own steel, and gets excellent performance out of them, certianly tweeks his MV above 1500! Best wishes D ive been loading steel for some time now for fowling,but always try new loads out on pigeon.ive been testing a 24.5 gram {7/8 oz} load of 3s doing 1750 fps,not much gets away from that :blink: craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 How do you find the recoil at this MV? Whets the meat damage situation on pigeon? Ta D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 the 7/8oz 3s are what some americans are using to shoot geese and swans. the speed is comparable, 1700fps. at what point does the balance go? too much cartridge, or not enough. some great information here guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK fowler Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Indeed 3's are big, 5's will do the job i suspect as the OP found, David steel 3# are big on pigeon most factory ammo marked up as a 3# is 3.5mm not 3.3mm a steel 5# is 3mm same as a 4# in lead and a steel 4# is 3.25mm so your always one size bigger in steel which can make a big drop in pellet count an oz of 3mm is just over 240 an oz of 3.25mm is down to aprox 190 thats a big gap if you trying to put 140 hits on that 30" circle? iv noticed before that basc dont pick up on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 (edited) Its a general principle that to get the best out of steel go up 2 shot sizes from lead. While no 6 in lead is the most favoured shot size in lead for pigeons few people would that surprised by a pigeon shooter using no 5. So using that rule 3s in steel are similar to 5s in lead in hitting power. Though the pellet count is a little lower that lead 5s this is more than made up for the way that steel patterns a lot tighter than lead. There might be fewer overall pellets , but the number of pellets in a 30 inch killing circle is very similar. When shooting medium sized duck such as wigeon again steel 3s would not surprise anyone and there is little difference in the body mass between a wigeon and a wood pigeon. Al I can say to any doubters is try no3 in steel and see how you get on. Edited July 24, 2010 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 We certainly have looked into patterning - We use the standard of at least 100 pellets in the 30in circle, which is the current minimum for clean kills of pheasant, based on US research. Smaller quary like pigenn needs a higher density? Maybe BASC’s steel pattern counts for UK no. 4 steel (32g Hull Steel Game) start at an average 148 through cylinder choke at 30yd. At 40yd the average is 171 through half choke, but only 90 through cylinder. Larger no.3 (3.3mm) shot patterns start at an average of 127 at 30yd through cylinder choke and, at 40yd, 156 through half choke, again falling below the 100 threshold (88) through cylinder. More research to be done by our boys and girls in the research team no doubt. Regards David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK fowler Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 (edited) I think you may have misinterpreted the point i was trying to make steel and lead are not size for size gamebore remington express and winchester all load a steel 3# at 3.5-3.6mm a uk lead 5# is 2.8mm thats a shot size jump of three sizes not two and a lead 5# pellet count of 220 and a steel 3# pellet count of 155 do not show a ballistic parity Edited July 21, 2010 by UK fowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob G Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 David basc,without trying to cause a argument.You have mentioned in a few of your posts 'based on us research' surely basc should be doing there own research. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 OK, thanks for putting me straight , Best wishes David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 Morning Rob, Yes we do use our own research, and its very important that we do- science based research on real life scenarios give much better data. But it is also useful to refer to past research that has stood the test of time for example, the '100 hits in a 30 inch circle' is a good example, its a 'standard' as it were against which different cartridges can be tested for patterning at different ranges. Regards David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob G Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 Thank you for the reply,bit of a stupid question.Are the results in the us the same as the results in the uk when using the same cartridge.The reason i ask is a very good friend of mine shoots clays all over the world.He told me that a cartridge will perform different in different countries due to air pressure and climate. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 the US will always be the gold standard when it comes to shooting. there industry is bigger and faster. air pressure / tempreature / humidity will affect cartridges, and ballistics. research gets outdated fast. i`m not saying the data is invalid, but certain issues may arise to question the information. the big question i want answering is, if the uk goes totally nontoxic, who is going to supply all this steel shot were going to use? there are only a few places that make shot here, and they are going to make a killing. the market will explode overnight. -someones going to make alot of money out of this. i dont think their motives are in everyones best interest. would steel shot manufacturers lobby for a lead ban? -makes you think- eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 I agree, conditions will have an effect on performance, but by how much I am not too sure as there are many variables. A bit like in cricket - same ball, same bowler, same pitch, same day - some overs it swings some overs it does not - why? One of the longest running debates in cricket I think! Yes I agree, constant research is required, this is what we aim to do. I can’t see any of the cartridge manufacturers lobbying for a lead ban. Best wishes David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 i ment steel shot manufacturers would profit from a lead ban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 Morning Rob, Yes we do use our own research, and its very important that we do- science based research on real life scenarios give much better data. But it is also useful to refer to past research that has stood the test of time for example, the '100 hits in a 30 inch circle' is a good example, its a 'standard' as it were against which different cartridges can be tested for patterning at different ranges. Regards David Sir Gerald isn't going to be very happy when that billet doux is delivered by a passing heavenly dove is he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) i just re crunched some numbers, ans steel is a very cheap alternate to the handloader. the discounts i was working out were that of a special bulk buy, not thad much really. 8-9p a cartridge. i`ve got the stipulation the powder will be 3p for a shell. (thats expensive powder) 1000 shells? £90 ! thats not bad. is it? Edited July 22, 2010 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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