Harnser Posted August 12, 2010 Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 Then you either have a wonder gun or low standards as one twist rate cannot stabilise all these bullets well 100-240 grain. Few would consider 4" groups as useable this is a low standard intended by DSC1 for total novices and those using open sights I dont think that you have read anything properly that I have written on here . I will tell you again that I have loaded just about all the available bullets for the .308 winchester and have had excellent results on all deer species in this country with these homeloaded bullets . I am not arguing about what bullet stabilises better than an other in a given barrel lenght . I dont give a toss . At sporting deer stalking ranges (100 to 150 yards ) The .308 and any other centre fire round will be stable enough or unstable enough to kill deer as they will be accurate enough . Any how my experiance of shooting deer with home loaded ammo has been gained over the years by practical use of the rifle both on the range and in the field ,not from reading some american hunting comics or reading what it says on the back of a box of ammo . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 12, 2010 Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 I'll quiz him some more. Is there a lead in to the twist? Most factory guns have an amount of "free bore" this helps with presure as a bullet jamed onto the launds will generate significant extra presure. If you have a custom rifle built generally the smith will want to know which bullets you intend to use, partially this is to determine twist rate but also how much of this frre bore to allow. Bench guns often have little or no free bore for accuraccy, while hunting rifles are generally cut with a little more. To illustrate the point further i doubt there is a factory .243" win that you could handload say a 55 grain bullet into a case and get it to touch the launds at all it would fall out the end of a std case generally. Jump or Jamb is one of the paramiters presision hand loaders experiment with but as i say jambing a bullet into the launds needs care towards exesive pressures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 12, 2010 Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 I dont think that you have read anything properly that I have written on here . I will tell you again that I have loaded just about all the available bullets for the .308 winchester and have had excellent results on all deer species in this country with these homeloaded bullets . I am not arguing about what bullet stabilises better than an other in a given barrel lenght . I dont give a toss . At sporting deer stalking ranges (100 to 150 yards ) The .308 and any other centre fire round will be stable enough or unstable enough to kill deer as they will be accurate enough . Any how my experiance of shooting deer with home loaded ammo has been gained over the years by practical use of the rifle both on the range and in the field ,not from reading some american hunting comics or reading what it says on the back of a box of ammo . Harnser . Mine neither it might be your view that 4" at 100 is good enough but to many it is not. If you ever required a backup shot at further range it would be very difficult to achieve with such a low std. Also high neck shots not practical, for that matter a heart shot at many angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 12, 2010 Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 Kent Whilst Harnser does not need me to stand up for him, he's quite old enough to do that for himself. I have to say that I always warm to and agree with his posts as he always gives sensible, practical advice. What I do object to though is you coming on here picking statements out of context and then trying your hardest to make the chap out to be a fool, which he clearly is not. Just wind your neck in chap and give it a rest.......it makes you look the fool but then perhaps you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 12, 2010 Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 Either, ask him how long it takes something is travelling at 2500 feet/second takes to cover 0.1 of an inch is, or do something different - there is no easy way to say this, you seem to attract weirdo's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 12, 2010 Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 4 shots on the stag were his fault for not making sure the gun was shooting properly to start with, I'm glad someone else picked up on that! Something was very wrong with the statement about taking 4 shots for the stag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 12, 2010 Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 Kent Whilst Harnser does not need me to stand up for him, he's quite old enough to do that for himself. I have to say that I always warm to and agree with his posts as he always gives sensible, practical advice. What I do object to though is you coming on here picking statements out of context and then trying your hardest to make the chap out to be a fool, which he clearly is not. Just wind your neck in chap and give it a rest.......it makes you look the fool but then perhaps you are. Touchy arn't we? I personally feel his previous attack unjustified but i am big enough to stand my own ground. There are guys reading this who will be seriously disapointed if they try shooting 100-220 grain bullets through thier newly purchased .308 win. believing they will get totaly satisfactory results I am not new to the calibre i don't get my info direct from american comics like Harnesser suggests, have used it in the field as a stalking gun and in F/TR and tactical matches out to 1000yds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted August 12, 2010 Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 Touchy arn't we? I personally feel his previous attack unjustified but i am big enough to stand my own ground. There are guys reading this who will be seriously disapointed if they try shooting 100-220 grain bullets through thier newly purchased .308 win. believing they will get totaly satisfactory results I am not new to the calibre i don't get my info direct from american comics like Harnesser suggests, have used it in the field as a stalking gun and in F/TR and tactical matches out to 1000yds. Kent , what do you call totally satisfactory results ? . Just let me tell you what I call totally satisfactory results . When I shoot a deer I want it to be killed clean and suffer the least amount of pain and trauma as possible . I have achieved this with 100 grain .308 bullets and 240 grain bullets on many occations . I only shoot deer at reasonably close distances up to 150 yards . May be these bullets will not stablise at 1000 yards ,I dont know as I have never tried them at that distance and I dont really care . But you are of the opinion that these bullets will not work in the .308 I know you to be wrong because of the times I have used them with totally satifactory results . Please dont try to put new stalkers off using these bullets befor they get a chance to try them for them selves . What is F/TR tactical matches at one thousand yards ?. Is there something to be learnt from this event in a stalking context . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 13, 2010 Report Share Posted August 13, 2010 (edited) Realy not looking for a fight over this, we have both put forwards our view. Can anything be learnt from shooting f-class in deer stalking (yeah it shows how hard it is to get the first round on target at the ranges people talk about now flipantly) f/tr refers to the use of a class of scoped rifle (f-class) TR means target rifle 308, .223, 30-06 calibre limited shot off bipod no bench rests allowed. open f-class is anything 7mm boo boo 6.5x284, 300 win mags etc and you can use rests Sorry f/tr is up to 1000 yds the match might run any range 300 whatever. tactical matches can be anything from a mcqueens to a 600 yds running target, ranging and knocking over steel plates whatever What speed can you run your 220's ? and why use 100 grn bullets anyway? I am not saying the 308 is a bad gun just it is not "in my experiance" the highly versitile tool it is being projected as here. .243" and 6.5's have always occupied that slot 6 x 47 lapua is also being seen as a great option presently but i have no direct experiance personally with that one yet Edited August 13, 2010 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted August 13, 2010 Report Share Posted August 13, 2010 Malki , sorry your thread got a bit off track . But I am sure that you have been able to pick up some good advice from it any how . You must read whats written on her and use your own common sense as to the advice that you digest . Best of luck . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted August 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2010 Malki , sorry your thread got a bit off track . But I am sure that you have been able to pick up some good advice from it any how . You must read whats written on her and use your own common sense as to the advice that you digest . Best of luck . Harnser . Harnser, no problem. I appreciate the advice. I will spend much more time before deciding on which to purchase. I would really like to shadow some more experience people before I even walk into a shop for a larger calibre rifle. I'll start with the .22lr and work my way up. My urgency before was for my application but knowing I can go for the one-for-one variation. The ground dictated part of my approach as the area cleared for .243 is not open to negotiation for a larger calibre. I am very lucky to get that owner to sign the paperwork for me. The other land cleared for .308 is much more flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 13, 2010 Report Share Posted August 13, 2010 Realy not looking for a fight over this, we have both put forwards our view. Can anything be learnt from shooting f-class in deer stalking (yeah it shows how hard it is to get the first round on target at the ranges people talk about now flipantly) f/tr refers to the use of a class of scoped rifle (f-class) TR means target rifle 308, .223, 30-06 calibre limited shot off bipod no bench rests allowed. open f-class is anything 7mm boo boo 6.5x284, 300 win mags etc and you can use rests Sorry f/tr is up to 1000 yds the match might run any range 300 whatever. tactical matches can be anything from a mcqueens to a 600 yds running target, ranging and knocking over steel plates whatever What speed can you run your 220's ? and why use 100 grn bullets anyway? I am not saying the 308 is a bad gun just it is not "in my experiance" the highly versitile tool it is being projected as here. .243" and 6.5's have always occupied that slot 6 x 47 lapua is also being seen as a great option presently but i have no direct experiance personally with that one yet Target work and field work often have little in common! I'm losing this a bit, things are going grey, perhaps its just the wine, but what are you trying to get at. I do a lot of target work but FAR more in the field, and the majority of my target work is 200yards, going out to 500-600yards from time to time, very rarely more. In truth these are social events and zeroing exercises for my various rifles (my competition days are behind me and also hold no interest for me anymore). And target ammo is a different animal to field ammo! So what is all this talk of daft distances, I'm struggling to see much talk here of deer stalking between 300-1000 yards, and the simple fact is VERY few people wonder into these distances for deer, and I believe Harnser was suggesting in the region of 100-150yards!! From what I recall someone suggested it doesn't matter what you hit a deer with or where you hit it, it WILL run, if you believe that, it would seem that putting a heavy .308 somewhere near the right place is as good as anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 13, 2010 Report Share Posted August 13, 2010 The question was asked of me i only answered it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 13, 2010 Report Share Posted August 13, 2010 not a lot more to add here but try turning up to an FTR match with a .30-06.... 308 or 223 only. My Tikka 308 is a bit picky with its hunting bullets, but it shoots a variety of weights accurately enough to kill deer - certainly 150 to 200 grain. 308 is a wonderfully versatile calibre but definitely weighted toward the deer. 243 is equally versatile but weighted to the fox (and get one with faster than 1:10 twist, so Remington - stabilise the 100gr bullet better). As for dead on the spot and meat damage - more meat damage = more chance to drop the deer. The shock power of 243 ballistic tip varmint ammo for example is immense - you get liquid internal organs! but equally, forget the far shoulder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 not a lot more to add here but try turning up to an FTR match with a .30-06.... 308 or 223 only. My Tikka 308 is a bit picky with its hunting bullets, but it shoots a variety of weights accurately enough to kill deer - certainly 150 to 200 grain. 308 is a wonderfully versatile calibre but definitely weighted toward the deer. 243 is equally versatile but weighted to the fox (and get one with faster than 1:10 twist, so Remington - stabilise the 100gr bullet better). As for dead on the spot and meat damage - more meat damage = more chance to drop the deer. The shock power of 243 ballistic tip varmint ammo for example is immense - you get liquid internal organs! but equally, forget the far shoulder. Not common but i do believe it allowed 30-06 being a military calibre and they certainly allow it's use in the USA were rules were developed, not sure if Steve Bowers used one or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 30-06 is f-open. Not F/TR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Have no fear - Kent will come back at you with a researched answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Have no fear - Kent will come back at you with a researched answer. Get out of here!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 30-06 is f-open. Not F/TR. it appears that way in uk, can't be bothered researching but still quite sure it's ok in states it is all derived from std military issue just like i have never seen a .223 in use i have never seen a 30-06 in use i just stated i believed it was allowed, can't see why anyone would wish to compete in open with one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 No, really, 30-06 is not allowed. F/TR is f class with normal target rifle calibres. Not 30-06. Yes it was once a military calibre, so what? Makes no odds. If the f/tr boys could shoot 30-06 then they would - same bullet and bigger case = more velocity = more wins! Pretty clear you can't use 30-06... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 No, really, 30-06 is not allowed. F/TR is f class with normal target rifle calibres. Not 30-06. Yes it was once a military calibre, so what? Makes no odds. If the f/tr boys could shoot 30-06 then they would - same bullet and bigger case = more velocity = more wins! Pretty clear you can't use 30-06... I don't doubt it is not allowed here i just thought it was, but it wil not realy better the 308 until you get to the heavier bullets over about 180 grains as bigger case means slower powder. And the longer action is not as stiff. The brief in developing the military 7.62 Nato (308) was it should equal the 30-06 with a shorter case. We are loosing the thread a bit here though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 It's not allowed in America either! A 30-06 with 208 gr hornady a-max would be a very good lone range load, hence it's definitely not allowed In USA either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 It's not allowed in America either! A 30-06 with 208 gr hornady a-max would be a very good lone range load, hence it's definitely not allowed In USA either. Ok but that aint gonna go so fast is it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 Speed is not everything - those bullets have IIRC a BC of .648, so they are a LOT better than the scenar at .508. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 No, really, 30-06 is not allowed. F/TR is f class with normal target rifle calibres. Not 30-06. Yes it was once a military calibre, so what? Makes no odds. If the f/tr boys could shoot 30-06 then they would - same bullet and bigger case = more velocity = more wins! Pretty clear you can't use 30-06... Let us now leave this diversion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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