steel shot goose loades

[pavman]

The pink Geese have arrived and so I have been testing some 3 ½ 12 gauge loads in steel for the Xtrema II as over the last few years i have found the factory loads never quite meet my needs and I cant afford the cost of bismuth . I have also dropped down from my 10 bore for much of my fowling.

 

The background being I have seen many instances of people pricking birds as they flight over out of a lack of knowledge of distance and perhaps ballistics required to do the job. My theory being a bigger projectile (in the case of steel shot) is more effective on large quarry.

 

Now I know folk who will poke a 32g load of number 3’s at a Goose and they are convinced this is appropriate even when the bird may flight over 60 yards above them. (of interest is my range finder will bounce off a goose in flight and give a reading) I and friends have also on breasting birds found them peppered with small steel shot which has only just penetrated the skin!

 

So I started testing a load with 34 grains of alliant 381 powder and the pellet count is 80 Tshot (5mm) giving 1 ½ Oz of steel shot. The shells are cheddite with a CX2000 primer and multi metal split wads from midway UK

 

I set up a 8mm (1/2 inch) 32X32 target board (i had 2 bits of exterior ply in the garage and they look about goose wings out size) @ 50 yards and covered in paper to give an idea of penetration and pattern, results have been interesting.

 

I started on a cylinder choke and also used ¼ but found no discernable difference in pattern

 

Powder grains Pellets striking target Penetration of 8 mm board

34 15 out of 80 All way and out the back

33 17 out of 80 All way and out the back

32 18 out of 80 All way and out the back

31 18 out of 80 All way and out the back

30 31 out of 80 All way and out the back

29 34 out of 80 All way and out the back

 

I also tried a factory BB (4mm) load and some i loaded and found that none could penetrate the board at 50 yards ( a high overhead target distance)

I am not able to give speeds or pressure data and got the recipe off the net, i also stripped down a Remmington sportsmans steel load in 3 ½ inch its 100 4mm pellets lots of buffer and 33 grains of powder, it gave an very nice pattern but not much by way of penetration @ 50 yards i would limit its use on Geese to sensible range (over deeks ) or use Bizmuth or heavy shot if possible instead of steel.

[Guest cookoff013]

glad you`re doing some testing. shooting steel is a whole other kettle of fish. the speed steel is just to overcome the last 8-10yards disadvantage that slow steel has. just putting enough energy at 50 yards to penetrate.

-on the otherhand 1.5oz of steel F or T shot doesnt need to go that fast to be devastating. imho more of akin to buckshot.

there is nothing wrong with a big heavy steel T load going 1400fps. and is a staple diet for some goose shooters. especially the big goose hitters.

 

your loads seem alittle slow, i`ve seen some 45grains of alliant steel 1,5/8 oz steel at 12000psi and 1500fps. that will bite both ends.

 

incidently, if i was exclusively after canadas, tungsten would be it. not to extend the range. they are a big bird, and can get away if pricked.

[UK fowler]

can you post some pics up? if your finishing your shells with a crimp 34grains = 1300fps or there abouts thats as slow as you wont to go with steel . 15 hits in a 32" square is very thin Id be looking for 50+ hits in a 30"circle for geese may be more not trying to discredit your test just Iv been down this road years ago with a csbo load that was a 31/2" roll turn over 43grains of powder 42grams of shot =1500fps+ my browning would not shoot a good pattern at all but my mossi 935 would put 75+ 4.8mm(BBB) out of 90 in a 30"at 40yds every time a real goose killer

[ayrshiretaxidermy]

The pink Geese have arrived and so I have been testing some 3 ½ 12 gauge loads in steel for the Xtrema II as over the last few years i have found the factory loads never quite meet my needs and I cant afford the cost of bismuth . I have also dropped down from my 10 bore for much of my fowling.

 

The background being I have seen many instances of people pricking birds as they flight over out of a lack of knowledge of distance and perhaps ballistics required to do the job. My theory being a bigger projectile (in the case of steel shot) is more effective on large quarry.

 

Now I know folk who will poke a 32g load of number 3’s at a Goose and they are convinced this is appropriate even when the bird may flight over 60 yards above them. (of interest is my range finder will bounce off a goose in flight and give a reading) I and friends have also on breasting birds found them peppered with small steel shot which has only just penetrated the skin!

 

So I started testing a load with 34 grains of alliant 381 powder and the pellet count is 80 Tshot (5mm) giving 1 ½ Oz of steel shot. The shells are cheddite with a CX2000 primer and multi metal split wads from midway UK

 

I set up a 8mm (1/2 inch) 32X32 target board (i had 2 bits of exterior ply in the garage and they look about goose wings out size) @ 50 yards and covered in paper to give an idea of penetration and pattern, results have been interesting.

 

I started on a cylinder choke and also used ¼ but found no discernable difference in pattern

 

Powder grains Pellets striking target Penetration of 8 mm board

34 15 out of 80 All way and out the back

33 17 out of 80 All way and out the back

32 18 out of 80 All way and out the back

31 18 out of 80 All way and out the back

30 31 out of 80 All way and out the back

29 34 out of 80 All way and out the back

 

I also tried a factory BB (4mm) load and some i loaded and found that none could penetrate the board at 50 yards ( a high overhead target distance)

I am not able to give speeds or pressure data and got the recipe off the net, i also stripped down a Remmington sportsmans steel load in 3 ½ inch its 100 4mm pellets lots of buffer and 33 grains of powder, it gave an very nice pattern but not much by way of penetration @ 50 yards i would limit its use on Geese to sensible range (over deeks ) or use Bizmuth or heavy shot if possible instead of steel.

 

not sure if it makes a difference, but 8mm isnt 1/2inch.

[mudpatten]

Some interesting results. Some time ago I experimented with 5mm steel homeloaded in a 3.5" 12 bore case but found that whilst the penetration was devastating, the pattern was very thin beyond about 30 yards and whilst 5mm steel will undoubtedly kill at 50 yards plus, the holes in the pattern are such that a large canada, never mind a pinkfoot, could fly clean through them at maximum range. Although, in my opinion, not best suited to a 12 gauge, 5 mm steel performs very well in a 10 bore where one can fill out the pattern.

 

I went down to 4.5 mm and found much the same. Devastating penetration on geese but poor patterns with many inexplicable misses on live birds at maximum range.

 

I`ve tried 3.5mm which gives good penetration and much better pattern but settled on 4mm which seems to give an adequate compromise between excellent penetration on geese,( although maybe not on 8mm exterior ply!)and effective pattern.

 

In the last three seasons myself and others to whom I have provided these 4mm steel cartridges have killed over thirty canadas, many at maximum range and found that they kill exceedingly well or so severely damage the geese that they are`nt going anywhere. they are certainly effective performers and I would not want to restrict their use solely to decoying.

[luvbus]

Nice post Pavman,

 

It would be interesting to see the test repeated using gradually smaller shot and see the difference in penetration. Although based on my limited reading of the subject the smaller shot requires the extra velocity to maintain energy on the target.

 

The lack of change in pattern with a change of choke was interesting too. 'The Status of Steel' suggests increasing the number of slits or increasing the length of the slits in the wad is a better way of opening up the shot patern with steel than changing choke, might be worth a try.

 

Cheers for your efforts

[pavman]

I assume that more powder and speed is spreading the shot outside the target but that you can get the 5mm going hard enough to do the business with just 29 grains at 50 yards and keep almost 50% of the load on target. I did not choke at 1/2 as was worried about pressure with 34 grains its a heck of a bang so going above that would have me concerned unless i had some guidance how ever i noted little change in pattern with open and 1/4 chokes......

 

the tests with 4mm (BB) gave a nice pattern in the Remmington factory load but not the abilty to make a hole @ 50 yards infact i picked a few shot out the board as they had just started to enter. I note that there is room in the Remmy wad to take 50 more pellets but they top it off with buffer, they supply about 100 pellets per load (1 3/8) when they could del 150 pellets per load not sure why and guess its a balance off speed and powder they use 33 grains. What we have found is not many 5mm pellets are required to bring the Goose down in fact i suspect just 1 will do the job as its a bit like chucking a brick

 

I will take some pics and put up later

 

the board in use was 8mm thick what ever that relates to in imp about 5/16?

[pavman]

Some interesting results. Some time ago I experimented with 5mm steel homeloaded in a 3.5" 12 bore case but found that whilst the penetration was devastating, the pattern was very thin beyond about 30 yards and whilst 5mm steel will undoubtedly kill at 50 yards plus, the holes in the pattern are such that a large canada, never mind a pinkfoot, could fly clean through them at maximum range. Although, in my opinion, not best suited to a 12 gauge, 5 mm steel performs very well in a 10 bore where one can fill out the pattern.

 

I went down to 4.5 mm and found much the same. Devastating penetration on geese but poor patterns with many inexplicable misses on live birds at maximum range.

 

I`ve tried 3.5mm which gives good penetration and much better pattern but settled on 4mm which seems to give an adequate compromise between excellent penetration on geese,( although maybe not on 8mm exterior ply!)and effective pattern.

 

In the last three seasons myself and others to whom I have provided these 4mm steel cartridges have killed over thirty canadas, many at maximum range and found that they kill exceedingly well or so severely damage the geese that they are`nt going anywhere. they are certainly effective performers and I would not want to restrict their use solely to decoying.

 

MP can you post or PM your load details plz,

[mudpatten]

PM sent.

[Guest cookoff013]

on a very different note, i`ve been looking into this devastating tungsten stuff. it appears the yanks have developed it enough for me to want to have a go. they can load 2oz of tungsten, in a 2,3/4" shell, the tungsten is #8 shot, but has 240 pellets in a load. (#8 is deemed equivalent to #3 lead)

this is where the magic happens, at 30yards the pattern is 100%, all the 240 shot is in 30" at 40 yards. actually its in 20". at 60 yards the pattern is well above 90%, ironicly the patterns are very uniform. and not hot coring. at 100yards the pattern is thin (but still there)

they recommended size 7, as it still will penetrate corrigated steel at 100yards ! this has been tested by several people !

 

the downside, $16 a shot.

[luvbus]

Nice post Pavman,

 

It would be interesting to see the test repeated using gradually smaller shot and see the difference in penetration. Although based on my limited reading of the subject the smaller shot requires the extra velocity to maintain energy on the target.

 

The lack of change in pattern with a change of choke was interesting too. 'The Status of Steel' suggests increasing the number of slits or increasing the length of the slits in the wad is a better way of opening up the shot patern with steel than changing choke, might be worth a try.

 

Cheers for your efforts

 

 

Or read the post properly!!

 

Reducing the number of slits or shortening the depth of slits keeps the pattern together (provided you are making your own)!!

[UK fowler]

on a very different note, i`ve been looking into this devastating tungsten stuff. it appears the yanks have developed it enough for me to want to have a go. they can load 2oz of tungsten, in a 2,3/4" shell, the tungsten is #8 shot, but has 240 pellets in a load. (#8 is deemed equivalent to #3 lead)

this is where the magic happens, at 30yards the pattern is 100%, all the 240 shot is in 30" at 40 yards. actually its in 20". at 60 yards the pattern is well above 90%, ironicly the patterns are very uniform. and not hot coring. at 100yards the pattern is thin (but still there)

they recommended size 7, as it still will penetrate corrigated steel at 100yards ! this has been tested by several people !

 

the downside, $16 a shot.

still holding out for these 1/2oz steel patterns? I noticed BPI have taken them off there web site!

[starlight32]

on a very different note, i`ve been looking into this devastating tungsten stuff. it appears the yanks have developed it enough for me to want to have a go. they can load 2oz of tungsten, in a 2,3/4" shell, the tungsten is #8 shot, but has 240 pellets in a load. (#8 is deemed equivalent to #3 lead)

this is where the magic happens, at 30yards the pattern is 100%, all the 240 shot is in 30" at 40 yards. actually its in 20". at 60 yards the pattern is well above 90%, ironicly the patterns are very uniform. and not hot coring. at 100yards the pattern is thin (but still there)

they recommended size 7, as it still will penetrate corrigated steel at 100yards ! this has been tested by several people !

 

the downside, $16 a shot.

 

 

I can assure you you cannot get 2oz of anything in a 2 3/4" cartridge, not even Hevi shot which is the heaviest of them all.

 

Maximum load in lead in a 2 3/4" case is 42g

 

If you manage it let me know.

 

Tungsten is good but better than steel, but not as good as Hevi.

 

I have shot loads of it, its the same price as Hevi shot,its only advantage is that you can put it through tighter chokes and older guns.

[Guest cookoff013]

I can assure you you cannot get 2oz of anything in a 2 3/4" cartridge, not even Hevi shot which is the heaviest of them all.

 

Maximum load in lead in a 2 3/4" case is 42g

 

If you manage it let me know.

 

Tungsten is good but better than steel, but not as good as Hevi.

 

I have shot loads of it, its the same price as Hevi shot,its only advantage is that you can put it through tighter chokes and older guns.

 

you have a pm inbound.

[Guest cookoff013]

still holding out for these 1/2oz steel patterns? I noticed BPI have taken them off there web site!

 

yeah, i noticed that too. i`ll send an email, i think its because of a recall in to the helarco wads, some of the helarco stuff has been burning through, i hear there is a big recall and a product re-design in process.

[anser2]

Remember pattern and pellet speed is only part of the answer for a hard hitting load. Chokes are very important. Using a full steel choke ( 1\2 lead ) I found BB and BBB pellets were pretty usless if used at geese at over 40 yards. But when I got a Special steel Turkey choke called Undertaker from HS Waterfowl ( choke .700 , about full lead choke ) the results were brilliant out to 50 yards. I found Winchester BBB pellets were producing 75% patterns at 50 yards ( they averaged 71 pellets in a 30 inch circle and 90% - 95% pattern at 40 yards ).

 

 

Hevi - shot , TSS and Wingmaster shells are ok if you only do a little goose shooting and will out perform steel , but if you are a serious goose shooter then due to costs it has to be steel. If I ued Hevi-shot all the time by bill for goose shells would be over £400 a year.

[pavman]

Remember pattern and pellet speed is only part of the answer for a hard hitting load. Chokes are very important. Using a full steel choke ( 1\2 lead ) I found BB and BBB pellets were pretty usless if used at geese at over 40 yards. But when I got a Special steel Turkey choke called Undertaker from HS Waterfowl ( choke .700 , about full lead choke ) the results were brilliant out to 50 yards. I found Winchester BBB pellets were producing 75% patterns at 50 yards ( they averaged 71 pellets in a 30 inch circle and 90% - 95% pattern at 40 yards ).

 

 

Hevi - shot , TSS and Wingmaster shells are ok if you only do a little goose shooting and will out perform steel , but if you are a serious goose shooter then due to costs it has to be steel. If I ued Hevi-shot all the time by bill for goose shells would be over £400 a year.

 

 

do we know what happens to the pressure using the Turkey Choke if its a full choke which i have listed as 40 thou? my understanding is not to go tighter than half or 20 thou or you risk blowing yourself up

Edited October 27, 2010 by pavman

[mudpatten]

Choke has very little effect on the pressure. We often need to re read the guidelines for the use of steel shot. The recommendation not to use tighter than half choke applies when using pellets of 4mm or larger where there is a theoretical risk of the large shot "bridging" - jamming together to form a solid lump larger that the choke constriction.

 

The various after market chokes available from the US , which are manufactured right up to "super full", are precision machined from tougher,higher grade steel than removable chokes intended for use with lead.

 

Your chances of "blowing yourself up" with steel when taking normal and sensible homeloading principles is very slight but there is a theoretical risk of damaging your barrel/s by"blowing out" over tight, non steel specific chokes when used with too large a pellet size or of ring bulging the end of the barrel for much the same reason.

[anser2]

The Undertaker steel choke I use in my browning Gold 3.5 inch chambered gun is specially made for steel and regulated for BB and BBB pellets.

[pavman]

The Undertaker steel choke I use in my browning Gold 3.5 inch chambered gun is specially made for steel and regulated for BB and BBB pellets.

 

can you supply details plz?

 

 

 

I spoke with Richardsons of Halesworth today who told me they have an Extrema on the bench just now with the choke and end of tube blown out from home loaded steel shot and a 3/4 choke, they also had one last year........... its good to be safe so better to do the homework now and save tears later

[Guest cookoff013]

amen to that,

 

if you have any concerns at all, play it safe with cylinder choke. its there to run anything through it. patterns may be poor, but if you havent got the dedicated choke, its the best alternative to a gunsmith.

i`d use cylinder choke with any shot, but especially large nontoxic stuff.

 

small steel is choke responsive, so 1/2 with birdshot, i`d say upto 5-4. after that dedicated chokes or cyl.

 

cook.

[pavman]

amen to that,

 

if you have any concerns at all, play it safe with cylinder choke. its there to run anything through it. patterns may be poor, but if you havent got the dedicated choke, its the best alternative to a gunsmith.

i`d use cylinder choke with any shot, but especially large nontoxic stuff.

 

small steel is choke responsive, so 1/2 with birdshot, i`d say upto 5-4. after that dedicated chokes or cyl.

 

cook.

 

we seem to have a lack of info on dedicated steel chokes available in the UK,

 

OK I am cracking on na bit and no whizz on a search engine so could use some help finding one for the Extrema II

[UK fowler]

google " walkers wadwizard " they have info and patterns they also deal with terror chokes which you can look at on the same site some people get good results with after market chokes some dont I rate them and use them in 12g and 10g briley are also very good they do a" duck" choke (light mod-3/8) and a "goose" choke (imp mod-3/4) in there line of hunting chokes these can be picked up from chris potter fieldsports and are much cheeper than the US chokes briley= £28 terror=£65 with shipping

[starlight32]

we seem to have a lack of info on dedicated steel chokes available in the UK,

 

OK I am cracking on na bit and no whizz on a search engine so could use some help finding one for the Extrema II

 

Get yourself a terror choke from the states, got one in me SX3 and Benelli. The only thing tighter than one of them is you.......