'Expanding ammunition' Vs 'target ammunition'

[Psyxologos]

I had a friend visiting from abroad and when discussion went to rifles and ammunition, I explained to him that I am only allowed to buy and use a certain type of ammunition for my 7.62 as I only use it for target shooting. He told me that he can go hunting using either type of bullet(expanding ammunition and target ammunition) as they essentially do the same damage when impacting a hard surface. I tried to explain to him that, despite both types of ammunition hitting the target at the same velocity, expanding ammunition will have more 'stopping power' and therefore kill the deer (he was talking about deer hunting)rather than injuring it etc.

 

As I do not really know that much about rifle ammo (I have only taken up target shooting in the last few months) I thought that 'hunting' or 'military' ammunition are supposed to fragment on impact so whatever they hit is either dead or incapacitated ASAP, as opposed to a target ammunition round will penetrate the target and may well exit without creating enough damage to kill or stop (in the case of combat) the target or it will lead to a long and painful process of bleeding to death. I thought this is the reason that you are not allowed to hunt deer or other species using ammunition that will not fragment on impact. To save the pray from suffering.

 

I thought that this is the reason bullets designed to kill are 'soft point' or 'hollow point' and not 'full metal jacket' like my target rounds. I vaguely remember another conversation with a military historian friend of mine who was telling me a story about a fight the British Army had against another army where the British were shooting the enemy but the enemy soldiers kept coming at them as the bullets went through them and some of the shot soldiers did not even know they were hit, as the bullet went through muscle and left the body (in the heat of the battle, with adrenaline running freely etc). This, my historian friend explained, was the reason the dum dum bullet was created.

 

Can someone please clarify this is correct and I am not terribly confused? Thanks!

 

P.S: Please do not direct me to an internet search, I just wanted to read a couple of lines from people here giving me a quick explanation.

[Dave 101]

From what I understand the type of ammunition we are allowed to use in the UK would be either of the following Ballistic tip , ie a plastic nosed round , Soft tip ie a lead nosed round , both having copper jackets , and hollow point which is a lead round ie subsonic .22 calibre .

What you have to remeber these are designed to do a specific job , they are engineered to expand in a controlled and predictable way .

That is why we have to use them ,because as a moral society we take that responsibility as a hunter to make the quickest kill .

As far as military amuunition is concerned again its designed to do a job , from what I have heard it fragments after impact so it is breaking up in an unpredictable way , more like bits of shrapnel travelling through the body with bits going off in all directions .

 

Dave

[artschool]

From what I understand the type of ammunition we are allowed to use in the UK would be either of the following Ballistic tip , ie a plastic nosed round , Soft tip ie a lead nosed round , both having copper jackets , and hollow point which is a lead round ie subsonic .22 calibre .

What you have to remeber these are designed to do a specific job , they are engineered to expand in a controlled and predictable way .

That is why we have to use them ,because as a moral society we take that responsibility as a hunter to make the quickest kill .

As far as military amuunition is concerned again its designed to do a job , from what I have heard it fragments after impact so it is breaking up in an unpredictable way , more like bits of shrapnel travelling through the body with bits going off in all directions .

 

Dave

 

i thought that expanding ammunition was illegal for military use?

[gsm1968]

Expanding bullets are designed to expand in a controled manner and to transfer as much energy into the target as possible. The best case being where there is no exit, wich would be a 100% energy transfer.

 

FMJ (full metal jacket) military ammo is designed to pass through with out breaking up,and with out the associated complications of fragments and tissue damage from the "Hydraulic shock". I think it came about due to the Geneva convention.

[Dougy]

If you were to use target amo for live quarry you will get allot of runners, some folk do use "A" max i have in the past, they do fragment. not designed to though as much as bullets designed for the shooting of live targets, ie hollow points or Ballistic tips or spitzers.

I personaly would never use anything other than bullets intended for live shooting due to not killing effectivly.

[hobbit]

A fmj or target hollowpoint( small meplat) will fragment if it strikes the target with enough velocity ie close range. A hollow point bullet (Large meplat) is designed to fragment at lower velocity by trapping fluid from the quarry in the hole and starting the expantion/ fragmentation a ballistic tip is still a hollowpoint bullet but has a plastic tip in the hole to help with the BC on impact the plastic tip starts the expantion instead of the fluid. A soft point bullet is designed to expand in a more controlled manner so as long as impact velocity is not too high it wont fragment too much the lead tip is soft and expands on impact but not so violently it fragments. The rate of expansion is controlled by the thickness of the jacket so a varmint type bullet will have a thin jacket to allow for violent fast fragmentation and a hunting soft point bullet will have a thicker jacket. the ballistic tip hunting bullets are still hollowpoint but they have thicker jackets so expand more like a soft point. If the bullet is designed for very tough game the jacket is 'bonded' to the core to stop them separating. You hear of people using target bullets on deer all the time( particularly in the states) they often have dramatic results because the bullet fragments and destroys the internal organs of the deer BUT it is not as reliable as using a bullet designed to expand as if no bone is hit there is the risk of the bullet needling straight through without transfering energy or destroying tissue.eg your war story. The Amax vmax argument has been done to death do a search on here and I'm sure you'll find enough reading to occupy a day or two. HTH

[Kes]

My understanding is that 'expanding' ammunition is banned under the Geneva convention, a ban which goes back to the British army's use of Dum -Dum (from a place name I think in India). The ammunition was soft lead and 'crossed' to promote fragmentation to 'bring down' so-called rebels who were taking hits from jacketed ammunition which was having little effect (adrenaline). Others have said that expanding ammo is about energy transfer and maximum targeted injury for humane despatch. Military ammo relies on injury as well but more on hydraulic shock, human bodies being largely water. Jacketed ammo only transfers maximum energy if it hits bone I think, otherwise it is very different in ballistic characteristics from expanding.

I shall continue to read with interest.

[NorfolkPoacher]

yeah, the Geneva Convention prohibits the use of expanding ammo for military purposes, however there is also a practical aspect as to fmj militery use, generally speaking FMJ military ammo is cheaper to mass produce, less fragile in transport and has better pentrating qualities due to its construction, so if targets are heavily clothed or lightly armored the bullets can incapacitate. all bullets expand, however ballistic tip bullets expand more rapidly providing a larger strike area and greater hydrostatic shock assisting the kill.

[Coolhead]

Not quite chaps. The Geneva convention covers treatment of POW's and civilians.

 

The Hague conventions cover weapons of war.

 

The Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India did produce expanding ammo but this was an independently run part of the British empire. This was hollow point or soft point. It was done as the early 303 round was believed to be inferior to the 45 martini henry.

 

Europe decided the use of expanding ammo on humans was ungentlemanly and uncivilised

 

No military small arms ammo is supposed to expand either by squashing or fragmenting. In many instances military ammo will pass straight through.

In practice, high velocity ogive rounds are butt heavy and easily flip to butt-first when travelling through flesh. Thus they can present a side on aspect.

Shockwave effects happen behind the bullet since they are usually supersonic.

So in practice it doesn't make much difference to the poor target. A blind larger hole or a straight through smaller one.

 

Ironically the most effective expander is a soft lead ball such as a musket ball, which isn't even a controlled item.

 

In the event, a hit from any bullet, even 22lr can really spoil your day.

[Vipa]

Not quite chaps. The Geneva convention covers treatment of POW's and civilians.

 

The Hague conventions cover weapons of war.

 

The Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India did produce expanding ammo but this was an independently run part of the British empire. This was hollow point or soft point. It was done as the early 303 round was believed to be inferior to the 45 martini henry.

 

Europe decided the use of expanding ammo on humans was ungentlemanly and uncivilised

 

No military small arms ammo is supposed to expand either by squashing or fragmenting.

 

All correct

 

Let's have a terminal ballistics lesson

 

Have a look at this video

 

 

This shows a 7.62 nato ball (FMJ) bullet going through ballistic gel. In particular, note the way the wound channel expands and then shrinks again after the bullet has pased through. Also note that the bullet is half way through the gel block before the cavity starts to expand significantly. This is why you quite often get a small entry wound and a large exit wound. Air is drawn into the body behind the projectile and expands to fill the cavity created by the HS shock.

 

Ok, now take a look at this video from Barnes

 

 

showing how thier expanders work in both ballistic gel and deer. Note the MASSIVE cavity created by the hydrostatic shock, this happens in the same way in the chest of the target. Even if the bullet misses all vital organs the surrounding damage done due to HS shock is incredible and will ensure a quick dispatch. It is highly unlikely that any animal (including human) would survive any torso hit with expanding ammunition as the tissue dammage surrounding the wound channel is just too great (the surrounding areas are effectively liquidised!)

 

A target hit with an FMJ bullet that DOES NOT strike any vital organs is likely (if not treated) to bleed to death slowly. The bullet creates a wound channel and whilst there is considerably hydrostatic shock, the trauma is survivable. This is why soldiers survive being shot quite regularly and, without having direct access to MOD statistics, you will probably find a survival rate of more than 50% where no vitals are destroyed in the process. If we could compare that with expanding ammunition (which we can't) the survival rate of a torso hit would probably be well under under 10%.

 

This is why

 

a.. we shoot deer and other game with expanding ammunition so that we can GUARANTEE as quick a kill as possible, even if the vitals are somehow missed.

b.. we don't shoot humans with expanding ammunition in war so that there is a chance of survival whilst still being incapacitated (please remember that the ultimate goal of combat (most of the time) is to incapacitate ones opponent, not needlessly take his life.)

 

Paul

 

One other point to OP.... Your friend is correct, ball ammo and expanding ammo DO react the same when they strike a hard surface. Animals (and humans) however are not hard surfaces, they are soft, mushy bags of fluid!

Edited January 17, 2011 by Vipa

[Imperfection]

If you ever get the chance to see the contents of a firing ranges bullet trap you'll see how very little deformation happens when they hit dense sand.Sure they're a bit squashed,but have not expanded or broken up.Musketballs seem to be the ones which expand on impact which is likely because they're just soft lead.

 

Intresting videos Vipa.Them grenade varmint rounds sure live upto their name!

[Vipa]

If you ever get the chance to see the contents of a firing ranges bullet trap you'll see how very little deformation happens when they hit dense sand.Sure they're a bit squashed,but have not expanded or broken up.Musketballs seem to be the ones which expand on impact which is likely because they're just soft lead.

 

Intresting videos Vipa.Them grenade varmint rounds sure live upto their name!

 

Yep... sifted through penty of traps in my time (usually as a punishment!!! better than being on KPs for an entire weekend mind!! )

 

Remember, expanding ammunition requires FLUID to work, not solid matter. If you shoot an expanding round into a tree it will pretty much retain its shape, fire a decent expander into a milk carton filled with water and you get a cloud of water vapour and a very deformed bullet! (well, you do with mine anyway!!!)

 

I watched a series of programmes last year which set out to dispell common conspiracy theories. One was the JFK assasination. They had a firearms and shooting expert (Brit surprisingly, on an American production!) and he proceeded to take shots at an anatomically and viscously correct head (apparently these things were manufactured in Oz at huge expense and perfectly mimicked brain matter surrounded by skull then flesh etc.. They were shooting these things from various locations (book depository, the grassy knoll etc.) to try and exactly replicate the damage done to poor JFK's head.. which they succeeded in doing by the way, when shot with the ammo, from a similar rifle Oswald had and from the book depository) Anyhoo..... I digress

 

One argument was that if it had been a professional 'hit,' the shooter would have used expanding ammunition to ensure a 'kill.' Remember, when the President was shot, blood and brain matter were splattered in the footwell and on his door but, he flopped forward, then back with his head intact.

 

When this guy shot the dummy head with expanding ammunition , it practically exploded!!!!

 

Worth a watch if you can find it on one of the download sites... they did the moonlanding and 9/11 too...

Edited January 17, 2011 by Vipa

[Psyxologos]

That was some great explanations guys, many thanks. I feel much more confident now. So in a way, both my friend and I were right, just on different aspects of the conversation. I am definitely much more knowledgeable on ammunition types now. Thanks again!