OCD Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Any chance david could post the accounts for the basc in particular the salaries taken by the directors presumably they don't take a large salary so that more money can be spent on promoting shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 From memory, members are sent a set of audited accounts annually, they are included with other information for the AGM. webber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Was with BASC for years but increasingly grew disappointed so joined NGO.Unless I'm mistaken the NGO was formed because they felt under-represented by BASC,which is disappointing. The more organisations we have,the less of an influence we can be. I have been saying this for years. Why can't the various groups organise a joint strategy, much like the work the NRA USA do. For what it is worth, I am a member of BASC, NRA (US), NRA (UK). I was a member of the NSRA but I was disappointed with them. Phil ps. I support BASC because of their input to this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 It all depends on the type and level of cover you buy. The problem is this - in just about all civil law cases, (County Courts) if you win you get all your costs paid (hence the adverts we see day in and day our for 'no win no fee') In these cases its easy to insure, because if you have a good case you know you (and the insurer knows) you will get their money back. In Crown Court - where firearms licensing, conditions, appeals etc cases would be heard- there is no such guarantee. The Court may award costs to either party, or they may say that all costs are shared. And it gets worse; the courts tend to see it as the police's roll to be cautious on licensing so even IF you win the chances are you will get costs awarded against you! Conditions on licenses cannot, typically, be appealed by the way. The insurers know this too. Insurers obviously expect to pay out on some claims but not all - so they 'gamble' with the types of risk their policies will cover and hope that they will pay out less than they take in though premiums. So trying to insure something where you will end up paying both your costs AND quite possibly the other sides costs whether you win loose or draw is not an attractive proposition for an insurer! All legal insurance polices have a checks and balances system whereby all cases that are presented to them are reviewed by a team of lawyers, and cover will only apply IF you have a good chance of winning your case. Legal insurance policies tend to be one of the most complained about insurance polices that there are according to the FSA. To include basic 'legal expenses cover' for all BASC members would cost between £100k and 500k depending on the covers required, not convinced this is the best use of members money frankly. Remember, the vast majority of cases such as failure to grant, failure to renew, revocation (or threat of) refusal to vary never ever go anywhere near court. Mistakes or errors of judgment, or (more typically) break down in communication are very often sorted easily without needing to go anywhere near a lawyer - that’s what the BASC firearms team do day in and day out. We do take appeals to Court when the case is strong and it is warranted, and these course cases are simply funded out of reserves. Again the case is reviewed by a team of experts within BASC as well as our lawyers before we take a decision one way or another One problem of going to law too soon is that you immediately loose the right to discuss and negotiate at FLO or FLM level, or even at Senior Operational police officer level, it’s now in the hands of the lawyers to debate the Firearms Act… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildgoose1uk Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I might be wrong but I thought BASC and the NRA liaised over Cumbria and agreed who should take the lead with the press etc. This is not to say that the BASC were not the best placed organisation to do so but if it was agreed in consultation with other organisations then this should be noted. In my view the way forward for shooting us to be represented by specialist bodies for our particular niche of the sport whether it be target shooting, deer stalking, pheasant shoots, clay whatever. Personally I have little interest in certain aspects of the sport and I do not particularly want my money to fund the defence of things I am not interested in like.... eg fox hunting. These organisations, as diverse as they are should then be capable of coming together to form an alliance, an umbrella organisation if you will, and prepare a co-ordinated, logical, vigourous, informed and useful defence of our sport. I do not believe any organisation can ensure the future of shooting, but they can do the best they can, which is actually quite a lot. Where would we be now without the shooting organisations to speak for us? I have only been involved in shooting for about 3 years and until now have only been a member of the NRA but now I am joining a pheasant syndicate I need insurance for game shooting and will in all likelihood join BASC for two reasons: 1. The insurance cover (which you can get cheaper elsewhere) 2. The campaigning side. I have spent most of my working life in the voluntary sector (not as a campaigner) and I have seen the difference they can make. If you look at the major charities in the UK today you will see that many of them are part of an umbrella group as well as standing on their own. Just look at the Disasters Emergency Committee as an example. Their members are major international charities that recognise the benefits of working together. I am not saying that shooting organisations do not already work together but as far as I know it is on an informal ad hoc basis. If this were formalised think how much more of an impact we would have. Not 100k members, not 200k members, but most of the shooting community. In 2009 in England & Wales there were 704k certificates covering 1.8m shotguns and firearms. That equates to 3.25k guns per 100k people. The government has to cater for the whole population and not just shooters and we need to have campaigning bodies that understand out sport to lobby intelligently on our behalf. I seem to have got on a bit of a soap box so I will stop now. Suffice to say that if the ten month deal is available at the then I shall be joining (despite the apparent lack of legal cover which i shall obtain elsewhere) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildgoose1uk Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Any chance david could post the accounts for the basc in particular the salaries taken by the directors presumably they don't take a large salary so that more money can be spent on promoting shooting? The annual report will be available o the charity commissions website. It will probably include details of their most highly paid person (or perhaps a few), but as the old saying goes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Everybody has families to support and salaries in the voluntary sector have always been below that of the provate sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 OCD,I think senior BASC staff are paid at a rate roughly commensurate with what their counterparts in comparable outside industry earn, the staff themselves would argue that it is actually considerably less. As a BASC member I obviously believe in value for money but one has only to look at some of the staff of other associations to see the proof of the old adage "You pay peanuts and you get monkeys!" However, if you want a real laugh,take a look at the accounts of some of the other associations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 The annual report will be available o the charity commissions website. It will probably include details of their most highly paid person (or perhaps a few), but as the old saying goes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Everybody has families to support and salaries in the voluntary sector have always been below that of the provate sector. Are they a charity or a ltd company??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildgoose1uk Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Are they a charity or a ltd company??? I haven't looked but I would have assumed they are 'Limited by Guarantee' which is what many charities are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I stand to be corrected here, but BASC is not a charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Yes there was allot of liaison between BASC and the target boys, sorry I should have mentioned this earlier. Geoff Doe (NSRA) was also very good giving verbal evidence to the HASC. BASC is not a charity, if we were a charity we could not do political lobbying and campaigning like we do. Webber is spot on, all members get a set of fully audited accounts, but we do not break down individual members of staff salaries, nor will I get drawn on this one. Regardless of what you may think, BASC is an employer and has to comply with employment legislation just as anyone else does, as an employer it also needs to meet the demands of the local employment market. In other words it would be great if we could all work for £50 a week, but in reality..... However, if you really are that interested then keep you eye on Shooting Times or indeed the BASC web site, as all job opportunities with BASC are advertised, including the salary Also remember allot of what we deliver to help members and support shooting on a national and international basis is by very people we employ. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Does anybody know how many full time staff the likes of SACS and the NGO have? I genuinely do not know. but have the impression SACS is one man operating with a laptop from his spare bedroom, SA likewise and maybe the NGO have a handful of staff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Frenchieboy, Just a thought mate, since you don`t belong to BASC but do belong to SACS,many of this forums debates relate to issues which affect shooting in England and Wales. Since you have elected with the choice of your representative body to absent yourself from those discussions at any meaningful political level,does this mean you will subsequently be keeping your opinions to yourself on this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildgoose1uk Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I stand to be corrected here, but BASC is not a charity. Yep - I agree. That'll teach me to make assumptions! They are: An industrial and provident society is an organisation conducting an industry, business or trade, either as a co-operative or for the benefit of the community, and is registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965. Perhaps David could elaborate on the reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Yes there was allot of liaison between BASC and the target boys, sorry I should have mentioned this earlier. Geoff Doe (NSRA) was also very good giving verbal evidence to the HASC. BASC is not a charity, if we were a charity we could not do political lobbying and campaigning like we do. Webber is spot on, all members get a set of fully audited accounts, but we do not break down individual members of staff salaries, nor will I get drawn on this one. Regardless of what you may think, BASC is an employer and has to comply with employment legislation just as anyone else does, as an employer it also needs to meet the demands of the local employment market. In other words it would be great if we could all work for £50 a week, but in reality..... However, if you really are that interested then keep you eye on Shooting Times or indeed the BASC web site, as all job opportunities with BASC are advertised, including the salary Also remember allot of what we deliver to help members and support shooting on a national and international basis is by very people we employ. David Aye thats a fair answer.Just 1 more question why are you as an organisation not more proactive where are the ads in national papers where are the good news stories of real charity work done by shooting men why do we hide and not take our cause to the masses and educate them cause damned sure it is the public's ignorance that will have us in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 We used to operate as an unincorporated body. This meant that BASC could not hold property, it has limited legal identity, great for a small club, not so great for a large membership body! About 12 years ago we looked at the different options for incorporation and at the time an IPS was by far and away the best option for us, not least of all because it fits with BASC's ethos of being a community based body with benefits for the wider community. This was very important in our recent VAT appeal. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildgoose1uk Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 BASC is not a charity, if we were a charity we could not do political lobbying and campaigning like we do. David I think you probably could as long as it was not party political. Many charities successfully lobby and there is no problem with it being political. The issue comes when it is party political. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Yep - I agree. That'll teach me to make assumptions! They are: David claims they are not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildgoose1uk Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 We used to operate as an unincorporated body. This meant that BASC could not hold property, it has limited legal identity, great for a small club, not so great for a large membership body! About 12 years ago we looked at the different options for incorporation and at the time an IPS was by far and away the best option for us, not least of all because it fits with BASC's ethos of being a community based body with benefits for the wider community. This was very important in our recent VAT appeal. David Seems like a fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 In reply to you question about the national media, we do put stories to the nationals 2-3 times we week - but rarely do they carry them, although we are mentioned in the national media on a very regular basis We do spend allot of time countering anti shooting stories in the media However, there are always more than one way to skin a cat, and we have had allot of general media coverage with some of the bio-diversity projects we run and also on the Game's On program about cooking and eating game Moving on, our new media center is destined ot move us even further into the public domain! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildgoose1uk Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 David claims they are not umm.... if you read the rest of the quote you will see I was agreeing with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 In reply to you question about the national media, we do put stories to the nationals 2-3 times we week - but rarely do they carry them, although we are mentioned in the national media on a very regular basis We do spend allot of time countering anti shooting stories in the media However, there are always more than one way to skin a cat, and we have had allot of general media coverage with some of the bio-diversity projects we run and also on the Game's On program about cooking and eating game Moving on, our new media center is destined ot move us even further into the public domain! David Thank you for your replies. OCD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Does anybody know how many full time staff the likes of SACS and the NGO have? I genuinely do not know. but have the impression SACS is one man operating with a laptop from his spare bedroom, SA likewise and maybe the NGO have a handful of staff A few years ago I had the same thoughts; asked the same questions. I'm still awaiting straight answers to simple questions. I couldn't find accounts for SACS or NGO, the CA accounts were very poor to be polite. SACS seems to revolve around one main man. NGO have a handfull of staff but a strong support from volunteers on a regional basis. At the time that I asked the CA didn't have one single person tasked with shooting as a remit. When they commenced their most recent advertising campaign to recruit shooters I contacted them again by email and asked the same question, I received no reply. Enough said. Make your choice, pay your money, get what you pay for, or maybe not, as the case may be. webber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 OCD,I think senior BASC staff are paid at a rate roughly commensurate with what their counterparts in comparable outside industry earn, the staff themselves would argue that it is actually considerably less. As a BASC member I obviously believe in value for money but one has only to look at some of the staff of other associations to see the proof of the old adage "You pay peanuts and you get monkeys!" However, if you want a real laugh,take a look at the accounts of some of the other associations. I saw an advertised post recently for a BASC senior job and it was less than half of what that job would be paid in industry, IMHO. (And I have some experience of job band levels in industry.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albertan_J Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 It's not about insurance its about representation for me that's why I joined basc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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