.223 REM or .223 WSSM

[fingersmuldoon]

Hi,

 

I have recently had my FAC varied and now have space for a .223 rifle and ammo(not further described). I have been looking around and have seen a number of rifles that I like the look of, one in particular is a Winchester Mod 70 in in .223WSSM, the rest are either CZ, Browning or Remingtons in .223REM.

 

So, to the crux of the matter. I have seen .223REM ammo for sale at about £30 per 100 rounds (commercial fodder, not military ball), but I have not seen any .223WSSM about. Wahts is availability like? Any idea how much I would be looking at per 100 rounds?

 

For the small amount of shooting I will be doing I dont intend to reload, so purchasing commercial ammo is the order of the day.

 

Cheers for any help you can provide.

 

Fingers

[JRDS]

Go with the first or buy a 22-250 if you need to really stretch things.

Edited March 9, 2006 by JRDS

[dunganick]

quite simply there isnt anywhere near as much load data or rifles chambered in .223 wssm as there is .223 Rem.

 

the .223 is a fine round, as is the .222, .22-250, 243

 

all of these rounds are chambered in alot more rifles, and both components and data is more easily avalible.

 

for me i would buy anything apart from the 223 wssm.

 

if you want a fast .22 centerfire buy a .22-250

[deadeye ive]

For the small amount of shooting I will be doing I dont intend to reload, so purchasing commercial ammo is the order of the day.

Well if you feel you won't be doing alot with it then go for the WSSM (Winchester Short Series Magnum )..........If your really set on it

 

 

But if you get the bug .....you'll regret it

 

 

.223 REM would be my choice

 

Ive

[fingersmuldoon]

Cheers guys.

 

My ticket says .223 Rifle and .223 ammo, so I dont think the REM or WSSM suffix will make a difference. (correct me if I am wrong).

 

I have had a nosey about and seen .223 WSSM dies from Lee & RCBS, including load data, for about £30 a set, so I dont think reloading would be an issue once I have the brass. I used to reload 38 Special, .357 Mag and 9mm eons ago when I had pistols, so maybe reloading is the way to go?

 

I must admit, I have always had a soft spot for .223 REM ever since I can remember, so I may go for that. My only concern is the quality of the kit CZ turn out (this is the most promising package). Back 'when I were a lad' :*) , CZ was Czech for ****, is this still the case?

[kip270]

My only concern is the quality of the kit CZ turn out (this is the most promising package).   Back 'when I were a lad' :*) , CZ was Czech for ****, is this still the case?

That's put the cat amongst the pigeon's.

 

CZ's have a big following now, they have come along way since the early days, a fantastic workhorse.

 

Welcome to the forum

Edited March 9, 2006 by kip270

[Frank]

I have a CZ .223 527 and love it.

It shoots all ammo within an inch at 100yds,( mostly 1/2 inch) and is a dream to shoot.

They are a lot of rifle for the money.

Pics below of my sucsess with my CZ. .

[Frank]

Another one.

[Frank]

And another

[rjimmer]

Why get all hung up over getting an extra few hundred fps out of a round?

A 22-250 will hit 5" low at 300 yrds if zeroed in at 200 yrds.

A .223 will hit 3" below it at that range!

Is it worth putting in 55% more powder and burning your barrel out in half the number of rounds for the sake of 3"?

[fingersmuldoon]

Guys,

What are HOWA rifles like in terms of reliability, resale value etc?

Cheers

[rjimmer]

Why get all hung up over getting an extra few hundred fps out of a round?

A 22-250 will hit 5" low at 300 yrds if zeroed in at 200 yrds.

A .223 will hit 3" below it at that range!

Is it worth putting in 55% more powder and burning your barrel out in half the number of rounds for the sake of 3"?

oh yeah, and 5"-3" is 2"

 

.223 with maybe 27 grains of H335, 40 grain v-max, approx 3500fps, 1088ft/lbs

.22-250 with maybe 37 grains of H4895. 50 grain v-max, approx 3700fps,1520 ft lbs

 

Thats actually 28% more powder by mass/cost(regardless of differing burning rates),not 55%

 

So those are real world figures from mine and chrisv's rifle, I suspect his can be stoked up a bit more but then that closes the powder gap.

Read it again!

22-250 ....5" low!

223 ....3" lower ie 8"low!

 

For 55grn bullets you could be using as much as 26.5 grns in a .223 for c3200 fps and as little as 28 grns in 22-250 for c3200 fps.

That's 5.5% more!

On the other hand, you can be using as little as 21 grns of powder in a .223 for 3150fps whereas you could be using up to 39.5 grns in 22-250 for 3700 fps.

That's 88% more!

 

Perhaps Nosler have got it all wrong!

 

22-250s are accepted to be barrel burners.

The only people I know with them, have them, and their ammunition, supplied by their employers!

[rjimmer]

you trade barrel life for performance with any rifle,

Like I said. "Is it worth it?"

 

We 'have' to use expensive non-toxic shot, some of which is supposed to be better than lead, for wildfowl but, at an extra £1 a shot would you use it instead of lead if you had the choice?

Edited March 10, 2006 by rjimmer

[chrisv]

Fingers,

Check your ticket and see if it has a metric and imperial calibre. Mine says"5.56mmx45/.223" So only .223 Remington is authorised. If yours only says .223, then it isn't very specific but still kind of rules out 22/250 and WSSM.

 

Re. Howa rifles, mine is a .223 Varmint Laminate and I'm still getting used to it, but it certainly shoots well when I do. The major downside was a terrible trigger (some Howas have excellent triggers) but this was fixed with a Timney replacement. You can have the original fettled which would cost a bit less.

Chris

[rjimmer]

I accept i miss read your original post re the 3" bit but that just then make sit worse doesent it!

 

You still put 55% though, i checked.

 

Regarding the lead bit, errrrrrrm, we have to use it so we have no choice. Its £1 a shot because of the economies of scale and differing production methods, materials and comparing lead v non-toxic to 2 calibres is totally warped.

 

And yes, 22-250 is cheaper than .223 ammo at my local dealer!

55% is somewhere in the middle of the range of differences.

In .223 eg. ... 25 grns of H335... 3140 fps mv.... 8.9" drop from 200 to 300 yrds

In 22-250.......39grns of IMR4350..3608 fps mv..6.2" drop from 200 to 300 yrds.

 

These are Nosler's Powder figures and Shooters Bible drop figures for the same 55 grn bullet.

 

That's 56% more powder to save an extra 2.7" of drop below poa from 200 to 300 yrds

 

Re prices: Look at the prices on these 2 pages and compare Samson ammo with the rest!

http://www.gunshop-eb.co.uk/CFT.Ammo.htm

http://www.gunshop-eb.co.uk/CFS.Ammo.htm

 

I think the topic starter should consider, is it worth it?

 

Re lead v Hevi-shot: 'If' you had the choice, which would you chose?

It's a pound(or more) a shot because too many bloody fools have shown that they are prepared to pay that much for it.

When a cartridge is worth more than the food you shoot with it, then there's something wrong in my eyes but, that's for another thread.

[dunganick]

By the way nick, i was gonna come to bisley, but now i cant cos my barrel is worn out

[rjimmer]

Now you are comparing apples with oranges. I was using equivalent priced powders by the same manufacturer.

 

And look into the energy figures of the rounds you quote, they arent even in the same ballpark. regardles of the bullet weight you base this on, i assume 55's then the 22-250 load has 32% more muzzle energy! More energy equals more knockdown power.

 

I just dont get what your point is???

 

Samson Ammo, have you any idea what the jackets are made of on that stuff

 

Compare apples with apples, i.e. something like Hornady Varmint express, both with 40 grain bullets and you will find the cost to be £13.69 for .223 and £13.57 for 22-250. Tim Hannam. OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH, thats cheaper!!!!!!

 

If you want to make a point have a fact to base it on.

 

I state again, I have no problem with .223, i just have a problem with 22-250's getting tarred with no basis in fact. If you want to buy a 223 buy one, if you want a 22-250, buy one, i really wouldnt advise the WSSM, its just another way to skin a cat. Dont listen to the non factual junk.

 

By the way nick, i was gonna come to bisley, but now i cant cos my barrel is worn out

There aren't many powders that are shown as suitable for .223 and 22-250 and get the 5-600 fps difference in muzzle velocity that would be expected.

Varget shows 40% more powder for an extra 600fps.

Viht shows 32% more powder for an extra 300 fps.

 

As for knockdown power. A .22 subsonic rf with muzzle energy of 90ft lbs will kill anything within 5 yrds. You don't need the extra 200 or so ft lbs of energy at 300 yrds that the 22-250 has over the 223.

 

You just need to put the bullet in the right place.

 

My point is, "Is it worth it?"

 

The keepers that run 22-250s, don't have to spend a penny of their own money on rifles or ammo!

 

All the Samson .308 cartridges that I have used, appeared to be brass.

I presume the 223 rounds are the same.

Sportarm of Dorchester used to sell it and they reckoned it would reload at least 5-6 times, no problem.

 

As for the steel for a good barrel, what spec would you recommend?

[fingersmuldoon]

Well guys....

 

Aside from the argument about barrel life with 22-250 versus 223... come on, how many of us are going to throw enough lead downrange to wear out a barrel? I screwed the barrel on my 9mm S&W Mod 38 Semi Auto years ago, but I was shooting about 100 - 300 rounds a week (all my own hot reloads) for about 5 years solid, so it was bound to happen.

 

For the amount of use the rifle will get (500 rouds a year if I am honest), I cannot see that shooting hot .223 military ball or reloads will make a scooby of a difference! Ok, I can see, after some research that .223 WSSM is a hot load, but I dont think I will blast my rifling down range in a few months.

 

And all this twoddle about zeroing at 200 & 300 yards... well come on guys, lets be serious here. If you have any common sense you will compensate for the trajectory of your rounds. Set your zero for a sensible range, and shoot enough rounds to know how high or low the shot placement will be at longer and shorter ranges. You should know your rifle and loads well enough before pointing them at an animal to be confident of hitting the target. Otherwise I suggest you take up origami.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone. It was not intended, however I have been shooting for more years than I care to remember, and spent a decade or so teaching shooting safety and marksmanship. I take pride in my sport, and hold high standards for myself, and expect them of others.

 

Anyway, I have had a look at a Howa, and its nice kit. I also looked at a CZ, and was impressed. My main concern is the trade in I get for my existing long guns, and if I need to fork out for a new cabinet (my existing cabinet is only 40 inches long, and may ot have the depth to take a scoped rifle).

 

I am off to Minsterley tomorrow to spend some cash! Watch this space to see what I buy, and how I get on. Its down to a .223 CZ, a .223 WSSM Winchester and my ability to control what I put on my credit card!

 

Cheers and stay safe.

 

Fingers.

[rjimmer]

When I bought my BSA supersport V rf in 1968, my mate bought a BRNO.

I wished that I had done the same. Different quality altogether!

Still got the BSA!

 

As for the extra few hundred fps second from a hot round, you have to decide for yourself it it's worth it.

Edited March 11, 2006 by rjimmer

[miffy]

Well guys....

 

And all this twoddle about zeroing at 200 & 300 yards... well come on guys, lets be serious here.   If you have any common sense you will compensate for the trajectory of your rounds.   Set your zero for a sensible  range, and shoot enough rounds to know how high or low the shot placement will be at longer and shorter ranges.   You should know your rifle and loads well enough before pointing them at an animal to be confident of hitting the target.   Otherwise I suggest you take up origami.

 

Fingers.

Er, is there anybody out there who wouldnt zero a .22 centrefire at 200 yards?

 

What exactly do you think these guns are for?

I wouldn't zero mine at 2/300 yards.........inch high at 100 yards for me.

 

Fingersmuldoon is spot on the money...... Know the tradjectory of your chosen load and zero at shorter ranges......200 yard zero is probably zero again at about 70/ 80 yards (i'm just guessing obviously,depends on calibre etc.) so why shoot at 200 yds when the target is easier to see close up

I'd need an oxygen supply on standby if i had to walk 200 yards to the target and back

[Frank]

Well guys....

 

Aside from the argument about barrel life with 22-250 versus 223... come on, how many of us are going to throw enough lead downrange to wear out a barrel? I screwed the barrel on my 9mm S&W Mod 38 Semi Auto years ago, but I was shooting about 100 - 300 rounds a week (all my own hot reloads) for about 5 years solid, so it was bound to happen.

 

For the amount of use the rifle will get (500 rouds a year if I am honest), I cannot see that shooting hot .223 military ball or reloads will make a scooby of a difference! Ok, I can see, after some research that .223 WSSM is a hot load, but I dont think I will blast my rifling down range in a few months.

 

And all this twoddle about zeroing at 200 & 300 yards... well come on guys, lets be serious here. If you have any common sense you will compensate for the trajectory of your rounds. Set your zero for a sensible range, and shoot enough rounds to know how high or low the shot placement will be at longer and shorter ranges. You should know your rifle and loads well enough before pointing them at an animal to be confident of hitting the target. Otherwise I suggest you take up origami.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone. It was not intended, however I have been shooting for more years than I care to remember, and spent a decade or so teaching shooting safety and marksmanship. I take pride in my sport, and hold high standards for myself, and expect them of others.

 

Anyway, I have had a look at a Howa, and its nice kit. I also looked at a CZ, and was impressed. My main concern is the trade in I get for my existing long guns, and if I need to fork out for a new cabinet (my existing cabinet is only 40 inches long, and may ot have the depth to take a scoped rifle).

 

I am off to Minsterley tomorrow to spend some cash! Watch this space to see what I buy, and how I get on. Its down to a .223 CZ, a .223 WSSM Winchester and my ability to control what I put on my credit card!

 

Cheers and stay safe.

 

Fingers.

Well said sir, thanks for that.

[fingersmuldoon]

Ok folks...

 

I put my money where my mouth is, and forked out for a CZ 527 American in .223 REM. I spent an hour or so zeroing it on the range (100 yards as that wa the longest I could get on). Offhand, with no rest other than my elbows, its shooting between 1.5 to 2.5 inch 5 shot groups. I am sure that if I used a proper rest, and played about with different loads I will be able to get it down to somewhere decent.

 

However the day did not go without a major disaster. I took 2 guns as a trade in. One, a Semi Auto shotgun, has been sat in the cabinet for about 5 years without being used. When they shot it it wouldnt cycle. No amount of cleaning and oiling would sort it. I guess after a few rounds it will loosen up a bit. Anyway, my trade in value plumited, so the plastic got hammered harder than I expected - never mind.

 

So thats me, a fully paid up member of the full bore rifle brigade. many thanks are due to those of you who offered advice and persuaded me not to buy a lemon.

 

Cheers.

 

Fingers.

[Frank]

Ok folks...

 

I put my money where my mouth is, and forked out for a CZ 527 American in .223 REM.  I spent an hour or so zeroing it on the range (100 yards as that wa the longest I could get on).  Offhand, with no rest other than my elbows, its shooting between 1.5 to 2.5 inch 5 shot groups.  I am sure that if I used a proper rest, and played about with different loads I will be able to get it down to somewhere decent.

 

However the day did not go without a major disaster.  I took 2 guns as a trade in.  One, a Semi Auto shotgun, has been sat in the cabinet for about 5 years without being used.  When they shot it it wouldnt cycle.  No amount of cleaning and oiling would sort it.  I guess after a few rounds it will loosen up a bit.  Anyway, my trade in value plumited, so the plastic got hammered harder than I expected - never mind.

 

So thats me, a fully paid up member of the full bore rifle brigade.  many thanks are due to those of you who offered advice and persuaded me not to buy a lemon.

 

Cheers.

 

Fingers.

Excellent stuf, welcome to the wonderfull world of the CZ 527 .223.

The best of luck, you have a keeper their.

Keep us informed of the results.

Any pics of the rifle and scope ect?

Edited March 11, 2006 by Frank

[miffy]

Errrr, what do you think an inch high means at 100 yards...............

 

It means its zeroed at a distance futher than 100 yards. So in the case of 22-250, if you want zero at 200 you put it an inch high at 100!!!!!!!!

 

Just in case you dont understand, "Zero" can be and Adjective or a Verb. The phrase what is your gun zeroed at usually implies the distance at which the bullet path intersects with the crosshair.

 

Besides if you are talking about practising to learn your trajectory you would need to shoot other distances.

 

 

I read it wrong oooooops :*) but thank you so much for explaining the term "zero" to me as i never really understood what it was all about!!!!!!!!!!

 

I own a .22/250 so tradjectory doesn't affect me as much as .223 owners

[fingersmuldoon]

Any pics of the rifle and scope ect?

Here you go...

 

Start them young, thats what I say!

Edited March 12, 2006 by fingersmuldoon