Vermincinerator Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 you can't legally shoot a pheasant with a rifle anyway i always believed that i could shoot a pheasant with a rifle as long as it was not a semi-auto. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Try reading I NEVER said it did understand? comprehend? take in ? by the way dont get fooled with education being linked to intelligence I know more than a few educated idiots. KW KW, you may not have expressly said it, but if you are of the belief that the wording 'any other legal quarry' does NOT mean you may shoot anything which is legal with the rifle conditioned with these words, then surely you are taking this viewpoint? If you are not taking this viewpoint, and do not believe that 'any other legal quarry' means exactly that, then what the hell viewpoint are you taking?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 from my local force Shooters should acquaint themselves with The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (WCA) and comply accordingly. Particular note should be made of the restriction imposed by Section 5, which makes it an offence to use an automatic or semi-automatic weapon which has a magazine capacity of more than two rounds, to kill any wild bird. The definition also encompasses Section 1 (Firearms Act 1968 as amended) pump-action and semiautomatic shotguns, and any rifles whether bolt-action, pump-action or semiautomatic, with such magazines, including air weapons. However, a person will not be guilty of this offence if they have obtained a specific licence for themselves from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) - 0845 601 4523 (general enquiries). Any person committing this offence may also commit an offence of failing to comply with the conditions of his/her firearm certificate if he/she is only authorised for vermin control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Alex, if you get a minute, can you please dig out the actual Section 5 for the WCA 1981? Looks like we might have a debate with two sides in the offing - the wording given by your local force does not say why Section 1 rifles are included in a definition of automatic or semi-automatic with a magazine of more than 2 rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I haven't got that much time on my hands however of note they also in black and white list foxes as vermin http://www.herts.police.uk/advice/firearms_licensing/faqs.aspx#vermin_control_and_deer_stalking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 al4x. strange that your force quotes the restriction for section 1 firearms including bolt action rifles because i cannot find the relevant entry in the Wildlife and countryside act 1981 Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Alex, if you get a minute, can you please dig out the actual Section 5 for the WCA 1981? Looks like we might have a debate with two sides in the offing - the wording given by your local force does not say why Section 1 rifles are included in a definition of automatic or semi-automatic with a magazine of more than 2 rounds. Thats because they are not listed in the WCA 1981, is this a case of Herts police wrongly interpreting the act? Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 weird isn't it, can't say its an issue for me as far as quarry are concerned pheasants aren't ever going to be rifle fodder for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 weird isn't it, can't say its an issue for me as far as quarry are concerned pheasants aren't ever going to be rifle fodder for me al4x, i dont use shotguns, and on one piece of land i shoot the owner allows us to shoot anything we want, i am not purposely going out to shoot pheasants with my rifle but i would like to put one on the table occaisionally. Several times now i have easily been able to get within 40yds of a browsing pheasant to easily dispatch it with a head shot, my licence condition stops me, any other legal quarry would allow me to do so, within the season of course. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George1990 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 West Sussex allow fox on HMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Not seen the new website, they must have recently updated it. that Herts doc seems to be full of inconsitency, for instance... "Schedule 2 of The Deer Act 1991 prohibits the use of any ammunition, other than soft-nosed or hollow-point, for the killing of deer." - So we're not allowed to use Ballistic tips then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 that Herts doc seems to be full of nonsense, for instance... "Schedule 2 of The Deer Act 1991 prohibits the use of any ammunition, other than soft-nosed or hollow-point, for the killing of deer." - So we're not allowed to use Ballistic tips then? I said exactly the same over on AirgunBBS one guy even piped up and said that BTs were hollw points :o Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Not seen the new website, they must have recently updated it. that Herts doc seems to be full of inconsitency, for instance... "Schedule 2 of The Deer Act 1991 prohibits the use of any ammunition, other than soft-nosed or hollow-point, for the killing of deer." - So we're not allowed to use Ballistic tips then? that one no one can make their mind up on, expand predictably is the sticking point. Personally I prefer not to after some excessive damage but lots do use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Try again, avoiding the issue doesn't fool anyone, if you want to believe any means lessor you are welcome, but do not tell me or anyone else that is confusing, ANY IS ANY, just which part of that don't you understand? So, no chance you will be answering the question then, I had an education and I know what ANY means, let me ask the question again, show me where it means lessor? Try reading I NEVER said it did understand? comprehend? take in ? by the way dont get fooled with education being linked to intelligence I know more than a few educated idiots. KW Ok third try, show me where ANY means Lessor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 .17 Hmr & .22LR for fox in Norfolk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Ok third try, show me where ANY means Lessor! like they say you cant educate pork so Ill stop trying, give my regards to dipsy and po cheers KW Edited March 21, 2011 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 This thread really is wonderful, any shooting debate ever all rolled into one. The ballistic tip for deer is an old favourite... A ballistic tip is not a hollow point in the terminology of shooters, but, for the Deer Act, it is. Here's why. The wording of the Act is a soft nosed or hollow nosed bullet. This is not actually defined anywhere. The construction of the ballistic tip is such that the plastic point is softer than the hard copper jacket, and under the plastic point is a hollow cavity. Clearly, there is a hollow space in the nose of the bullet. Ergo, it is a hollow nosed bullet. Is a BT what the shooting fraternity calls a hollow point? No, nor is it a softpoint, as we understand the term. However, the law does not stipulate what definition we are using. To win the case, you have to prove the BT doesn't have a hollow point, which you can't, because it does. Ergo, it is legal by virtue of not being excluded by definition. Personally I think this is a grey area working just fine because the BT works OK on deer. It can cause excessive meat damage but so long as you use the deer variant it works well. I use teh 125gr on roe in a .308 and it works a charm. Nice and dead, but not in 85 pieces. Also people forget the accubond, which is like the BT but designed to expand slower. And also has a hollow cavity in the nose... And I think we can shoot pheasants (in season of course) with the correctly-conditioned rifle by the looks of things too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Ok third try, show me where ANY means Lessor! like they say you cant educate pork so Ill stop trying, give my regards to dipsy and po cheers KW So, there we have it, a fully reasoned adult response , that will be your way of suggesting the only definition of ANY you could find actually said it means ANY, and does not mean lessor. I'll go with Mr L on this and put another £50 in the pot, so that's £100 to anybody who can produce a document that will stand up in court saying ANY means Lessor. Until then try and keep your childish comments in check! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigrifle Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Nice to see the same old faces from the bbs spouting law and set in stone some of these guys ive watched come through the air gun rank to CF in the last few years, now re your question, the only way to be on the right side of tested law is to have each species listed against a caliber, the minutes from the last ACPO meeting are on google just type in LESSER SPECIES and you will see this has not been adopted rank and file so therefore mark my words this will be tested in court do you want to be the test case. Now if you can show good reason for a caliber and named species you will get that. Ive tested this to the limit and beyond, now mr nickbeardo i dont have many posts on here thats as I is out doing it rather than on here talking about it and re me never having a FAC mines more than likely 10 to 15 years older than you are, so there we go if in doubt put it in writing to you local office and get it back in writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Do you actually speak English or are you learning at night school? The word Any means Any, not lesser. Full stop. IF you have that wording you can shoot what you like as long as you don't infringe any other laws. Doesn't matter what ACPO's intention is, once the words are on the ticket, that's an end of it. There won't be a test case about the word any. Maybe fox on a vermin ticket, but thr CPS isn't going to spend tax payers' money debating the word any, because they will lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Just a slight side to this lesser malarky, now it does seem if you have Deer on ticket that the intention of the wording was to let you make your own decision about other species and so cover your back. This looks to be to provide a wording to cover you for vermin shooting with deer calibers etc. Boar obviously make the water slightly murky as you could debate all day whether they are smaller than deer http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/news/10/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) This is a debate that will run and run. My ticket has the following 5. the certifcate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with: (b)the shooting of vermin or, in connextion with the management of any estate, other wildlife; 6. The.22 rifles and .22 Sound Moderator and AMMUNITION shall be used for shooting VERMIN and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief office of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot. My FEO/FLO in Kent says Vermin does not include fox, Condition 6 states VERMIN, but condition 5B allows "other wildlife" so does Condition 5B override Condition 6 or does 6 override 5B. Personally, I have had the chance to shoot fox at less that 30 yards with the .22lr but have not because a) fox is not implicitly stated and b)verbally I have been told by the FEO/FLO that if I am authorised to shoot fox it will be stated on the certificate. Now if I was to shoot Fox would I be "legal" in doing so because of Condition 5B regardless of what the FEO/FLO have said verbally. That brings into play the definition of an "estate" what is an estate defined as in the condition of the certificate. Not sure I would take the chance and end up as the test case......also I have a variation in for 17hmr and centrefire (.223) anyway. Edited March 23, 2011 by Bradders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 5b has nothing to do with the rifles use purely the expanding ammo, In your case you had a defence if you ever needed it till you asked them to clarify the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Al4x.... that makes perfect sense......even though the only expanding ammunition I have is for the .22lr, just shows that the conditions are open to individual interpretation and are not applied consistently across all forces.....incidently, i have been told that fox will be allowed on the .17hmr. Will just have to wait and see what comes back on the ticket. Thanks..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Norfolk FEO/FLO say Fox must be on your ticket next to each calibre you wish to use, i have it on all 4 of my rifles, my mate said he could shoot Fox but when we looked at his ticket it said Vermin and i tried to explain it that Fox does NOT come under Vermin, he phoned his FLO and was told he could not shoot Fox and had to ask for this to be put on his ticket which he did and was refused :o As said if you are unsure ask your firearm office in writing or phone but alway get the reply in writing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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