mrikirkby Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 I have tried to search for this but havent had much success so my question is can i take my friend shooting on private ground, with land owners permission and can he use my gun if supervised by me ? Obviously I am a SGC holder but he is not ? Just unsure and would rather check first. This is not a club or clay ground club. Regards Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semiautolee Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 yes he can as long as you are over 21 and are with him, and have land owners permission etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) I think someone can use a shotgun borrowed from and in the presence of the "occupier" of the land see here: http://www.fieldsportuk.co.uk/about-us/laws/ A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises, including land, and use it on those premises in the presence of the occupier. Note that this exemption means just what it says: the gun must have been borrowed from the occupier, the premises must be private, and the occupier must be there when the gun is being used. Edited March 16, 2011 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrikirkby Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Yes I am over 21 and so is he and we have land owners permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZ550Kevlar Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I believe land owners permission and landowner in the eyes of the law is a grey area, common opinion in the past is land owners permission isn`t the same as landowner and personally speaking i never do it to push my luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynGT4 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 The whole question of who does and who doesn't qualify as being an 'occupier' (or his agent) of the land is a total nightmare (like a lot of our firearms legislation). The definition is so vague, there is no guarantee it will be reliably interpreted. In other words, it could very easily go either way! I've asked my FEO exactly the same question and he agreed it's too vague and in his opinion I'd be better off taking friends to a clay ground with a section 11 exemption. Better safe than sorry and all that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjimlad Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Generally, you can't take a mate shotgun shooting on someone's land where you have permission to be, unless he too has SGC, or the landowner/occupier lends him the gun and is physically standing there with you and lends the gun to your pal. If the farmer has a SGC you can lend him your gun and he can lend it to your pal. The exception to this is clay grounds holding an exemption certificate. The rule on rifles is more relaxed, as a servant of the occupier can lend a rifle to a non-certificate holding person for use in the servant's presence. If you have written permission to shoot vermin on the land as a job you are doing for the farmer it has been suggested that you would qualify as a servant of his. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Generally, you can't take a mate shotgun shooting on someone's land where you have permission to be, unless he too has SGC, or the landowner/occupier lends him the gun and is physically standing there with you and lends the gun to your pal. If the farmer has a SGC you can lend him your gun and he can lend it to your pal. The exception to this is clay grounds holding an exemption certificate. The rule on rifles is more relaxed, as a servant of the occupier can lend a rifle to a non-certificate holding person for use in the servant's presence. If you have written permission to shoot vermin on the land as a job you are doing for the farmer it has been suggested that you would qualify as a servant of his. As far as Im aware the rules are the same for sgc as they are for fac regarding someone else using your gun. Shot guns 6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows an individual, without holding a shot gun certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence. The presence of the occupier is normally taken to mean within sight and earshot of the individual borrowing the firearm. The term “occupier” is not defined in the Firearms Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning. However, the Firearms Consultative Committee in their 5th Annual report recommended that the provisions of section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’. In the absence of any firm definition for firearms purposes, it is suggested that each chief officer of police may wish to make use of this definition. On some occasions though, where the status of a certificate holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the chief officer may need to consider seeking the advice of counsel. Section 57(4) provides that “premises” shall include any land. The borrower may be of any age but an offence may be committed under section 22(3) if a minor under the age of 15 is not supervised by a person over 21 years of age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 It all comes down to the definition of occupier. In my humble opinion there is a vast difference between someone who has the shooting rights/hunting rights and someone who has permission from the holder of those rights to shoot on that land. The first has a tangible asset, one which may be sold or traded and the other merely has permission to shoot on the said land. I would not lend a gun to someone in such circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I have debated this 'occupier' thing with a number of people and we have come to the conclusion that this and many other bits of shooting related legislation are kept deliberately vague, to allow the police and courts to show a bit of discretion when dealing with potential 'offenders' - in other words, they can jump on those who are acting foolishly or dangerously without putting unreasonable restrictions on the rest of us. This site is full of debates about how poorly worded and open to interpretation the law seems to be but I think on balance it is better left that way, because the alternative is tightening it down so much that the sensible majority will suffer in an attempt to control of the small number of idiots that manage to get hold of a SGC. Discuss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Diceman i would like to think your right but as soon as it gets tested it sets a precedent or a tort, the brittish legal system is based on this principal. (Man riding clapham omnibus etc)I would like to think an SGC holder can take an adult on land where they have permission to shoot and shoot a shotgun in a supervised and safe manner without breaking the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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