darren m Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 question -- if to hit clays , i have to block them out ( as opposed to putting the bead on them or under them ). whats wrong with my stock fit , does it ( cheek ) want to be higer or lower. i,m thinking higher , if so whats best way to do it . thanks Darren . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 thats a question with alot of answers what gun is it, it could be setup differently depending on if its a trap, dtl, sporter, game how have you decided its shooting this way? you need to pattern the shotgun, shooting clays isnt the right way to do things. The Last Engineer is probably the chap who you need to talk to about this, or catamog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Geordie Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I would say you cheek is a tad low If you have to cover them to break them that places the front of the gun high and the rear low meaning your cheek is seating too low perhaps. try differing your cheek weld on a pattern board (costs nowt but cartridges and paper) You CAN buy Combe raisers that go on your existing stocks combe and raise your cheek weld slightly. It could ALSO be the stock length at fault Also i had a damaged Choke causing the same symptoms as you are experiencing. LG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo_05 Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 If you look at the two things that are most likely they are: 1.The comb is too low meaning your looking from straight along the barrels rather than from above them so you can't see the bead and the target. solution: try a comb raiser, if that doesn't work have a gun fitting session. 2. It could be a poor mount causing this try mounting differently BUT if it's uncomfortable to do so and you don't still have your cheek on the stock then it's the stock that needs altering. The zycometric(something like that) butress the piece of bone at the top of your cheek can be at differing heights and can be of a different size in different people. This piece of bone rests on the comb, so if there isn't enough height giving the symptoms you describe then you need a bit added to the comb. Also if you are shooting a rising target with a sporting gun then you will have to blot out the target with the barrels to account for upwards lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted March 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 its a sporting gun , wide rib , 2 beads . on skeet , i dont really see the problem . but on DTL , i cant hit a thing , unless i have my head so low i cant even see the bead . tried it by raiseing my head a little , but still not hitting the mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo_05 Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Right these 2 beads, what do the look like in your sight picture, touching? like a figure of 8? or like this: |0| | | |0| | | | | | | Or are they squished on top of each other? If this is a sporting gun then you won't be able to see the target on DTL to hit it. But on skeet where theres no vertical lead required you should be able to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted March 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 i understand now what you mean , but whats the difference between sporting gun and other types apart from rib width , is the any . i think i,ll get hold of a cheek peice . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Darren, Try using a Cheek EEz comb raiser - it will effectively reduce the drop on your stock so you should be able to see the rib and target as you are shooting it. They come in 4 thicknesses - see the link below. http://www.avalon-shop.co.uk/shop/index.ph...3b2ea25facf286b My advice would be to experiment with layers of cardboard from a cornflake box and sticky tape until you find the correct thickness of comb raiser before buying a proper pad. Alternatively, visit a good gunfitter in your area (Doveridge..??), and get them to fit a gun to you, then take those dimensions to a gunsmith and get him to bend the stock upwards to the correct height. It will make a big difference to how many targets (or birds) that you kill - most newcomers to the sport simply don't understand how important gun fit is to shooting well. Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Cat. a question for you as a top shot type bloke. i like to shoot a gun where i see a tiny bit of rib but just a bead, and this sight picture is what i look for on every gun. to the point at which if a gun naturally dosent come up in this way i will force my head down onto the comb to achive it, then recieving a belt in the gob for my efforts. how do you shoot with a gun that dosent fit? do you try to attain the correct sight picture (best way to describe it) or do you shoot the gun with too much rib showing and as such hold under to allow for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 nick by the sound of it you have enough skill and knowledge to go from what i call the "A" shot to the "B" shot very easily ,if your stock shows you a little rib as most should (generaly speaking before the dogs come at me) you will hae the ability to move your face up or down the stock to compensate a bad mount or slight different gun, from what i know of you, i dont see a problem, i beleive you have the skill in shooting that allows you to ask and answer most questions and develope your own ability, others dont, no disrespect to them, the post by darren says he blocks out the bird. question to you, what bird , incoming, outgoing, left to right right to left, give me a little more info on what you shoot and your gun , i will walk you through as much as possible with you, here or PM as you wish, i'll help you out though whatever the question, not wanting to sound conceted either. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 its not a particlar problem, just one of those questions that has mystified me since ive been shooting. the way i shoot at the moment is to always force my head down (ive never had a gun with too much drop) onto the stock to get the correct sight picture. this dosent cause a problem on clays, my scores range from 30 - 40 ex 50 which im pretty happy with. however the problems come when shooting in the field, as i dont have any lead pictures (best way i can describe maintained lead) the problem is i think that i mount the gun, and as i dont have time to get the correct mount, only a few times the gun mounts with the correct sight picture (obviously shooting snap shots here) this results normally in me missing over. so am i best of mounting as the gun mounts and then shooting under (or learning to do so) or should i just continue trying to shoot 'head down' in the field. that was a very complex way of explaining it, but im affraid there are several things at work. the gun is a lanber sporter (older model) O/U 12b which i have had bent to give the max drop at toe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Nick i wonder if your actualy trying to hard to bury your head on the stock in the field that is, the majority of the time on target one has the time to correct/perfect the mount, as said practice makes perfect right, in the field the shot is more of reaction than known track or flight, this dosent mean you haven't time to correct a mount or swing, its just having the ability and confidence to do so when it happens. every guy on this forum has done this, snapped the gun to the shoulder and taken what we all know is a potshot, your caught off gaurd the bird reacts against you and so on, you swing stab and miss "spherical objects" is the call , what you have to do is have the ability to recognise that shot as it comes into play, then act and control it, you will find you have time, its almost like time itself slows up, try a soft pre mount, e.g. see the target/ bird, have the gun almost in the pkt then finish the mount to shoot, you will find you have the time to correct or fine tune, most of my time shooting practice targets is spent tuning the mount, finding a way of correcting a bad mount, even to the point of remounting for the shot whilst still tracking the bird, its all practice right. i spend a lot of time analising my shooting, always looking for a few more "X's" on the card, i shoot with a friend on a regular bassis, we each look at the others swing, mount, stance and so on, no were not Digweeds, but we both shoot well and consistant scores so it helps, have a buddy stand next to you and see, you'l be suprised . Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 (edited) so would you suggest i lift my head from the stock and hold under when taking shots? i have been considering fitting a adjustable comb to the gun, allowing me to put some more drop onto the front of the comb (also flattening it out and lessening the felt recoil) is this worth doing? (please say yes becuase they look really kool ) cheers for the advice btw, its much appreciated. Edited March 20, 2006 by dunganick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo_05 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Try adding a bit of height so the rib is more in your peripheral vision. It allows a faster mount as theres no time where you have to force your head down. In a quick move mount shoot if you concentrate on bringing the GUN to your cheek rather than trying to rush a low mount and force your head onto it. In a more upright trap position on the stock you can still take a quick shot but try to get the mount higher. Try a comb raiser before going for that adjustable to see if it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Try adding a bit of height so the rib is more in your peripheral vision. It allows a faster mount as theres no time where you have to force your head down. In a quick move mount shoot if you concentrate on bringing the GUN to your cheek rather than trying to rush a low mount and force your head onto it. In a more upright trap position on the stock you can still take a quick shot but try to get the mount higher. Try a comb raiser before going for that adjustable to see if it helps. my point is though that i like to shoot a gun where i can only see the bead and a tiny bit of rib. by adding comb this will just make my problem worse, raising my head and making me see more rib and have to shoot under the bird. the reason for the adjustable is the opposite to normal, to allow more drop on the front of the comb to be added, and as such meaning i can get my head down (becuase the stock is now lower) and shoot it with the sight i like. its complex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo_05 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 I misunderstood :*) Bloody complicated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 tell me about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Nick, A couple of observations: The vast majority of top Sporting shots use a gun with a very flat rib, that shoots dead to point of aim. This is because on most Sporting layouts nowadays you have a variety of targets rising and falling, and any gun that shoots anything other than dead flat becomes a liability, particularly on dropping birds. Your cheek should nestle fairly tightly onto the comb at all times, so that when you look along the barrels, you see only the bead. I still miss birds by failing to keep my cheek very firmly on that comb. It's worth doing a bit of trial patterning on a pattern plate at about 25 yards with a tight choke to check that the gun is shooting to point of aim, (they have one at West Kent Shooting School), but don't overdo it on the pattern plate because you end up with more questions than answers, particularly if you start testing different cartridge / choke combinations. It will do your head in, believe me..!! Don't bother fitting an adjustable comb to your Lanber, as the cost of it would be more than the gun is worth. Far better to save up for a new Beretta or similar with an adjustable comb as standard, also if you are serious about competition clay shooting, the extra weight of a Beretta would be beneficial. I cannot stress strongly enough the importance of correct gunfit to shooting well. I used to shoot with a guy who couldn't hit a cows **** with a shovel at 2 paces, we test patterned his gun and he was amazed to find that for him it shot 2 feet left and a foot high at 20 yards..!! That was soon solved by a trip to the gunfitter and gunsmith to have the stock altered, the difference was amazing..!! I'm sure plenty of people will say this is all a load of bo****ks, and they can just point and shoot any old gun, and of course they're entitled to their opinions, but I believe that in order to be a top class performer, your gun MUST fit perfectly, and must be regularly checked, particularly if you gain or lose weight. I hope it works for you. Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 (edited) cheers Cat. however i am very tempted by the adjustable stock, as the components are only $49 plus a few $ postage. and all my own work. so for £40 i think it might be a worth while thing to do. we will see. thanks for your advice anyway. Edited March 20, 2006 by dunganick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo_05 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Oh so you've got chronic "fiddling" aswell then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 good advice on the adj/comb from catamong Nick, they can be a pain in the ****, most who have them dial in and leave it there, as cat says weight loss,age canalter POI, where they can adjust again and set it, as i recall your comb drops quite dramaticly, i think your shoulders were the reason, try moving your head a little forward or back whilst mounted, you will see the difference in rib/bead picture, this could be the simple answer, find where you like the mount and shoot it there, im not putting gun fit down, just giving you another option . Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 good advice on the adj/comb from catamong Nick, they can be a pain in the ****, most who have them dial in and leave it there, as cat says weight loss,age canalter POI, where they can adjust again and set it, as i recall your comb drops quite dramaticly, i think your shoulders were the reason, try moving your head a little forward or back whilst mounted, you will see the difference in rib/bead picture, this could be the simple answer, find where you like the mount and shoot it there, im not putting gun fit down, just giving you another option . Martin yes, ive had a gun change since that one (a vostok) however the new gun also has alot of drop at toe, and not alot at the front of comb (hense very steep angle and more felt recoil) all i thought the adjustable stock would do was allow me to put more drop on the front of the comb and as such level it out a bit in relation to the drop at toe (get a flatter comb) i also had no real intention of changing it once sorted, i know what a pain the mind games are. You remember correctly, i have very sloped sholders and ontop of this long arms and a long neck (paint a pretty picture dont i ) my dad is about my size and recently had his gun fitted and was given a pull of a little over 16" (if memory serves me) there is a small chance that i will be given my dads mk70 when his blaser arrives, and this gun fits much better and for a few £ can have the stock altered to fit (already has been altered to 16") when i get home i will get a picture of several gun next to each other to give you some idea of the drop and pull involved. (Beretta 391, miroku mk70, lanber sporter) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Nick, From what I remember about the day at West Kent was you shot reasonably well with the Ulrika. Why not use it all the time? I have a silmilar problem with using my Xtrema. My winchester select fits me very well and I can shoot well with it. I see a small ammount of rib and both the centre and end beads. When I use the Xtrema I miss everything over the top unless I make a concious effort to shoot under the bird all the time. I have lowered the heel so if I look at the gun when shooting all I see is the back of the action no rib at all but it has helped. My advice from all this is find a gun which suits and shoot a lot with it, nothing will teach you more than lead fired down the range. I am quite sure there is hundreds of opinions out there but I do agree with Catamong and the last engineer that a good gunfit is an absolute must. Hope this helps Cheers Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 yes sounds similar to my problem, unfortunatly i dont own the 391 and cant afford one by a long shot so cant use that one really. Nor with that wood would i want to use it for anything other than clays (which isnt the real problem) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Nick -- out of interest , where did you see / find the adjustable stock components etc . cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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