al4x Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 are you sure that will raise the point of aim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) are you sure that will raise the point of aim I prepared to seem thick but yes it does raise point of aim therefore making the poi lower as the line of sight through the scope and the bore diverge . I think it works like raising or lowering an iron rear sight . ELEVATION and WINDAGE adjustment travel should be reserved for fine correction. While normally not required, major alignments should be made by shimming the mounts and/or bases. Over-adjustment of Elevation and Windage controls may lead to internal damage of your riflescope. SHIMMING FOR MAJOR ELEVATION ADJUSTMENTS: • Shim Front Base For Additional Down Movement • Shim Rear Base For Additional Up Movement • For Major Windage Adjustments We Suggest Using A Windage Adjustable Mount • For Best Results Use The Lowest Profile Mounts P Edited May 20, 2011 by vole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 you should have to shim a HMR regardless of the scope unless A) mounts are pants or B) scope is pants I have bore sighted all mine easily enough I did it off the kitchen table using a bright red burglar alarm on a wall about 50yds away. easy enough to get the barrel lined up. fix the rifle and see where your scope is on the wall by comparison. but be honest it is far easier finding a large open space with a sand bank, soft ground etc etc to see where your rounds are going BEFORE you start investing in new scopes etc. I was off a 3x3ft board at 100yds last week when I zeroed mine, but because I was off in the sand to the right it was easy to get it back on. From what you say in the OP, you still are not sure where they are going - is that the case? if you find that they are 10 feet off to the left right bottom at 50yds etc then your scope is not going to allow enough correction and I would put it down to either the mounts or of the physical location of the scopes line of sight. Wind your scope turrets fully one way then counts how many turns to reach the opposite limit. divide by two and wind back that number (both turrets, although its sounds like you have done this) either bore sight (you can do this at home and I find the further away the POA is the better) or find a big sand bank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Great idea about the sandy back stop , helps alot . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 It is quite easy to bore sight a .17 but you do need to be able to hold the gun rock steady in a vice or something. Even wedging it tightly between a couple of padded bricks or something would do. I did mine in the house and pointed it so that looking through a window I could line up on a chimney bracket of a house about 100 yards away, the bracket was easy as it stood out clearly against the sky. Take out the bolt and try looking through the barrel, it is not as hard as it sounds. Before fitting the scope your really MUST make sure that both turret adjustments are centralised. Wind each one from one extreme to the other counting the number of rotations and then wind back half way so they are both in the middle. Some scopes have more adjustment than others but you really want to use shims (old photo negatives are good) to get the vertical adjustment fairly close before adjusting the turret. If the horizontal adjustment is a long way out that suggests unsuitable mounts. Make sure that the screws on the mounts are on the same side and that you are not adding a large offset by fitting the mounts off centre horizontally. When you fit the scope zoom in on the chimney bracket that you bore sighted on. You should be able to get the barrel (bore sighting) and the scope fairly accurately pointing at the same thing - but you must have the rifle held securely so that it cannot move. Once that is done, start with a couple of shots at 25 yards to make sure that you are at least on the paper and then zero initially at 50 yards as that will be a similar zero point to 100 yards but is easier to see, gives tighter groups (because it is closer) and is not so far to walk up and down. It is also easier to find a suitable place to shoot 50 yards than 100 yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 I am not a fan of shimming. I have had probably 3 scoped air rifles with scopes ranging from a 3x24 £10 no name job through hawke, nikko, tasco etc etc have 5 scopes on FAC rifles from hawke through S&B, never had to shim any of them. if your line of sight is that far off you need to ditch the mounts. at best shimming is a botch job, at worse it can make things more complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 The best thing is always - get it in the hands of a man that can, failing that post on a forum and let us all assume whats wrong without taking a look see first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.A.Gnun Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Bought a S/H Cz452 American in .17 with a scirocco mod on and put a S/H Hawke scope on. Went to zero @ 100yrd, could'nt get it on the paper, bore sighted tried again, nothing. Found it was shooting massivly high, Ran out of down elevation, So I swapped mounts around then things got odd I COULD'NT HIT AN A2 piece of paper Tried with mod on, mod off then tried a different scope still unable to find where it's shooting but must be a mile out. tried with Remington, CCI and Honady all just vanishing, Tried @50 yrds still nothing? I ran out of time on the range. What the hell is going on? As far as i can see i have ruled out the ammo, scope and the mod all it can be is the mounts or the rifle. I have a spare 'scope and mounts so i will give the bore a good clean and try it again failing that it will have to go back to the shop. Anyone known this before? start at 20 yrds and go back in 10s zeroing as you go its the only way -bore sighter should get you closish though -or maybe thats faulty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted May 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 The best thing is always - get it in the hands of a man that can, failing that post on a forum and let us all assume whats wrong without taking a look see first Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Cheers i am serious take it to someone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) I am not a fan of shimming. I have had probably 3 scoped air rifles with scopes ranging from a 3x24 £10 no name job through hawke, nikko, tasco etc etc have 5 scopes on FAC rifles from hawke through S&B, never had to shim any of them. if your line of sight is that far off you need to ditch the mounts. at best shimming is a botch job, at worse it can make things more complicated. Shimming the scope on a rifle, certainly one with almost no recoil, is perfectly normal practice. To say that "at best shimming is a botch job" is nonsense. What you want to avoid is excessive scope turret adjustment. Ideally keeping the adjustment somewhere near the middle, just think about how a rifle scope is constructed. There is not very much adjustment using the turrets on my Nikon Monarch so unless you want to buy expensive adjustable mounts, you have to shim. Just make sure that the material used to make the shim is sufficiently robust and will not compress. Photographic negative is easy to cut, thin, and does not compress, corrode or react with the metal of the scope. One thickness should be enough or at most two. Edited May 20, 2011 by dadioles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Card (?) around the barrel! A folded £5 is sufficient. Shim (for this work) = bodge. Feel for you, mate, but if you haven't sussed it yet, do what Kent says and get it to someone who knows. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) Shimming scopes is designed to allow the scope to work close to the centre of its adjustment range, which is claimed by some to give better quality image, less parallax error and more reliable dialing in. I tried it and couldn't tell the difference, but I guess a better shot might be able to. Edited May 20, 2011 by Catweazle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Shimming scopes is designed to allow the scope to work close to the centre of its adjustment range, which is claimed by some to give better quality image, less parallax error and more reliable dialing in. I tried it and couldn't tell the difference, but I guess a better shot might be able to. "Some" are correct in their claim and this is best achieved by using adjustable mounts in order to keep the scope adjusment to the absolute minimum. For the type of quarry species and the normal/usual range at which they are shot in the UK, it's probably unnecessary except for the real enthusiast. I have them on my 223 but can still hose bullets about the countryside with the best of them. It would appear that the OP has something fundamentally wrong which we all have little hope in resolving without getting our sticky little fingers on it. I still think that the best advice has been already given. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted May 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 CURED Tried it with the new scope and mounts, I printed 1 to 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with any ammo I tried in it I tried with the old scope went back to grouping like a shotgun. Job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 if shimming was "designed" to do anything other than bodge a **** set up them scope and mount manufacturers would refer you to it as a solution. they dont. get some decent mounts cut within a decent tolerance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 if shimming was "designed" to do anything other than bodge a **** set up them scope and mount manufacturers would refer you to it as a solution. they dont. get some decent mounts cut within a decent tolerance Ideally shims will not be required but this is the real world. Incidentally, scope and mount manufacturers do make and supply shims. You can also get "inserts" and "offsets" but expect to spend silly money. We are talking about rimfire rifles with very little recoil and a lot of people who shoot with them have very little cash to spend. Mounting a scope with a 50mm objective so that it clears a reasonably large diameter moderator can mean that it is seated quite high using "tall" scope mounts. Mounts can be very expensive so a lot of people do not have the luxury of trying different ones but have to make do with what they have or can purchase locally and cheaply. Shooting distances with rimfire are quite short and the gun may be zeroed as close as 50 yards. With a high mounted scope that means that it has to be tilted so that the cross hairs can be lined up with the arc of fire and preferably without having to adjust the vertical turret too close to its end stops. Of course no horizontal shimming should ever be needed. Some of my guns I have had to shim, most I have not. Shimming has never caused any difficulty whatsoever - standard practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 "Some" are correct in their claim I know, but stating it as a fact on this forum will result in somebody arguing, and I can't be bothered any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 I know, but stating it as a fact on this forum will result in somebody arguing, and I can't be bothered any more. Valid point and one of which we're all guilty at times. Tiring isn't it!? As someone just said a few days back. it's the pig/mud/wrestle/engineer syndrome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
here iam Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 CURED Tried it with the new scope and mounts, I printed 1 to 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with any ammo I tried in it I tried with the old scope went back to grouping like a shotgun. Job done. Just seen all this Dave , i dont rate them Hawk scopes had same problem when i was using one on a air rifle always losing zero.Any way glad to see your on Fac now so am i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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