roadkill Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 im starting to struggle with the hunting side of training , she did start to quarter but the she shoots forward about 25ft and sniffs around that area rather than quater the ground so in my eyes shes missing areas . How do i correct this as when i recall her back and send her off to the left or right she will just go straight ahead again , i think i might of caused this as when i get in in themornings i take her for a walk up the canal path where she gets to free run and do her 1s and 2s but i have now been told by a friend that to only take her out to work and no more normal walks with free running around this seems a bit harsh to me but is he right is this the problem? cheers roadkill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) Why dont you teach her to quarter? Walk her on the lead in a nice tigt hunting pattern pipin the whistle when you you turn. When this has been learned use a long lead for her to get her distance right. This may help. Edited July 16, 2011 by Beretta28g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Are you wanting her to quarter in a nice tight pattern? If so there's a few techniques which will help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadkill Posted July 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 and that chaps is what im struggling with , how do i teach her to quater when she runs ahead doesnt have to be very tight pattern just dont want her missing areas , also do you agree with my mate that i should stop all walks and free running and only get her out to work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 RE me edited post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 and that chaps is what im struggling with , how do i teach her to quater when she runs ahead doesnt have to be very tight pattern just dont want her missing areas , also do you agree with my mate that i should stop all walks and free running and only get her out to work Hard to say about walking without seeing the problem. How old is she? If she's still young (under 12 months) take some tripe/crushed biscuit out in a bag with you.Sit her up facing you and throw some tripe/crushed biscuit to one side then cast her off in that direction.Let her hunt that patch for a little while then pip the whistle for her to turn, as soon as she looks at you throw the tripe/crushed biscuit in the opposite direction and encourage her to hunt that area.it won't take long before she starts to develop a pattern but at this stage the whistle will help alot. If she does'nt know what the whistle is for throw a dummy out to one side (it will help if you have a friend to help you out) cast her off in that direction.As she gets 5yds away from the dummy pip the turn whistle, if she does'nt turn this is where your friend helps out.He/she needs to get to the dummy first and pick it up and you need to correct your dog.If your dog gets to the dummy first Don't tell it off , just take the dog back and start the exercise again.It shouldn't take to many outings until your dog grasps it. If your dog is a little older you can still try the methods above or try the following. I always use use fresh rabbit/game as i find it better to train with With a couple of fresh rabbits in a game bag cast your dog off to one side, when she has her back to you skim one of the rabbits along the floor in the opposite direction without her seeing it.Pip the whistle for her to turn as soon as she comes round encourage her into that area you threw the rabbit and bang she should hit some scent.After she's picked the rabbit cast her back off in the direction she's just picked from and skim another rabbit along the floor in the opposite direction and pip the whistle to turn her and again encourage her to hunt that area. Always set the retrieves up in front of you and at a distance you want your dog to hunt and the rest should fall into place aslong as you're consistent.Once she gets where she should be hunting you should be able to lay off the whistle and let her flow If you can get her flowing nicely but want to get her working tighter give me a Pm and i'll try and explain a method i use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Glad someone as brought this subject up again my bitch is same but shes 2 1/2 now and as two seasons experience , i taught her to quarter fairly well and she would turn on 2 pips and change direction ( but never that close ) . but now after mainly walking on straight foot paths / lanes etc for a while she does the same as yours mate , goes out hunts too far away about 20-ish yards . even if i,m in a crop she,ll rather follow the tram lines than work from side to side , so i,m for ever piping her back to turn her , so shes sort of like going backwards and forwards in stead of across left to right as we walk more open spaces. my fault i think :( as early on in training i did too many long retrieves with , training her to get out and pick up etc. i would like her to hunt a tightpattern in front of me and across me , without having to use the whistle so much. So anymore tips on this would be greatful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 The biggest omission from any of the replies so far is the mention of the wind? Understanding the wind in relation to teaching a dog to quarter is very important, as is understanding it when you come to actually working them. Before teaching an older dog to quarter or correcting poor technique, you must ensure that the stop whistle is 100% there (Not 95%!) and that the dog will recall first time every time to your feet (not an area within 10 yards of you!) Find a nice quiet area somewhere, were the grass is not too short nor too long (Not in woods just yet) make sure the dog has run off some steam first in "free time" play and then sit the dog up next to you (on the left for right handed shooter, or the right for you left handers and falconers) Have the wind blowing directly in to your face, give the dog a command to "get on" (Hunt on, hi-seek, bannana pizza or whatever you use - but stick to one!) At the same time point (No waving!!) in the direction you want the dog to go - now the tricky part - you need to walk that way too - roughly at about 10 degrees to the parallel (So going slightly forward) walk at a brisk pace for about 7 or 8 paces (5-10 yards) the dog should quest out in front of you (it wont know what on earth you are doing at this stage and neither will you!!) After 7 or 8 paces stop and watch the dog, it should turn and look at you as you stop (Ideally it will turn out not in, but dont worry about that yet) as it does, soft clap of the hands and recall whistle, turn on your heels and head off in the other direction for 14-16 paces (7 or 8 gives you the your start point then 7 or 8 out the other way) - recall whistle because you have not taught the turn whistle yet (Ideally you want to do away with the whistle eventually altogether and the dog will just do it without any commands or fuss) You want the dog to come across your front and literally across your toes - not 5 not 10 and not 15 yards in front of you - right across your toes. Repeat the zig zagging down the field (Or where ever) keeping the dog nice and tight. If it ignores you at any point, then drop it on the stop whistle. Walk calmly up to it, give it a tickle and cast it off again, repeating the exercise - at first keep it short and sweet, 4 or 5 legs is more than enough. As the dogs confidence builds you will be able to reduce the number of paces you take left and right (But sill going forward slightly) but the dog should still go 8-10 yards each side of you - you will find that it starts to look in as you start to stop, as it does so, using your whistle and an arm signal, cast it to the other side. Very quickly you should have a dog that is quartering a neat pattern in to the wind with the minimal of handling. Best to teach this on fairly game free ground, before adding scent in to the equation. The trick with a hunting dog (ESS, Cocker, HPR etc) is if it is not hunting then it is at heel - it is either quartering within range or it is at heel. The only exception to this rule is free exercise - and when I free exercise my dogs, I stand still. They get told "Go play" and they know they can run riot - but as soon as I start to walk I want them at heel, not free hunting. They only hunt when I say so. Crack this and I'll explain about wind treatment and problems for you as and when they arise. Good luck Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 peg leg / mike -- 2 very good explanations thank you , i never think of wind direction , i need it tattooing on my forhead doh i want to go right back to basics with the quartering should i start off on unscented or little scent or plenty of scent areas , i can use paddock ( short grass ) or scrub land which is best for starters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Scent free is best to start with, otherwise she will start to "dwell" on scent - nothing more annoying that a spaniel hunting for "nothing" - you want your dog to flush hard on contact and not dwell on old scent. You want to get her hunting "Head down" not "Head up" looking for stuff - she needs to learn to use her nose - if you throw things she will be using her eyes and not her nose - if you need to use "items" to reward her then hide them in the area before taking the dog out (But this comes later in her training really) Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Scent free is best to start with, otherwise she will start to "dwell" on scent - nothing more annoying that a spaniel hunting for "nothing" - you want your dog to flush hard on contact and not dwell on old scent. You want to get her hunting "Head down" not "Head up" looking for stuff - she needs to learn to use her nose - if you throw things she will be using her eyes and not her nose - if you need to use "items" to reward her then hide them in the area before taking the dog out (But this comes later in her training really) Mike I'll agree that you want your dog to hunt head down but I'm sorry I'll disagree throwing "items" will make the dog use its eyes unless it sees whats thrown for it.When I say skim a rabbit/dummy across the floor in the opposite direction I mean when the dogs back is turned hunting the opposite direction.As soon as the dog turns and hunts that area it should wind it and encourage it to hunt, very similar to setting up a live flush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 .Sit her up facing you and throw some tripe/crushed biscuit to one side then cast her off in that direction.Let her hunt that patch for a little while then pip the whistle for her to turn, as soon as she looks at you throw the tripe/crushed biscuit in the opposite direction and encourage her to hunt that area.it won't take long before she starts to develop a pattern but at this stage the whistle will help alot. I'll agree that you want your dog to hunt head down but I'm sorry I'll disagree throwing "items" will make the dog use its eyes unless it sees whats thrown for it.When I say skim a rabbit/dummy across the floor in the opposite direction I mean when the dogs back is turned hunting the opposite direction.As soon as the dog turns and hunts that area it should wind it and encourage it to hunt, very similar to setting up a live flush. I have no wish to argue but your first quote is clearly throwing food for the dog - this is teaching the dog to use its eyes and look for an edible reward. Each to their own, but I prefer my dogs to use their sense of smell and actually hunt quarry and not "bump" it - likewise using dead game teaches a dog to dwell on scent - live game has a totally different scent to dead game. Use dead game to teach a dog to take a line by all means, but not to quarter. Regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) I have no wish to argue but your first quote is clearly throwing food for the dog - this is teaching the dog to use its eyes and look for an edible reward. Each to their own, but I prefer my dogs to use their sense of smell and actually hunt quarry and not "bump" it - likewise using dead game teaches a dog to dwell on scent - live game has a totally different scent to dead game. Use dead game to teach a dog to take a line by all means, but not to quarter. Regards Mike Likewise i don't wish to argue but these are training methods that i've been taught by a couple of well repected triallers that get to the spaniel championships year after year As for throwing tripe(minced) or crushed biscuit it helps a young dog to get its head down and learn to use its nose.I'm not trying to tell you how to suck eggs as I'm quite sure you know alot more than me .But I'm also going to listen to lads that deliver the goods year after year.As for the use of dead game in the use of quartering I'm sorry but I've shadowed a bloke for months training now and this is how he brings all his young dogs on and uses a similar method with live game to simulate flushes. Sorry if my posts are coming across argumentitive, they're not meant to at all and look forward to your response as I'm sure you'll agree we can all learn different things from different people along the way. Edited July 19, 2011 by pegleg31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) double post Edited July 19, 2011 by pegleg31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Hi Pegleg, Debate is always good, there is no right and wrong in dog training (apart from the use of force) just different methods to achieve your aim. All I was saying and explaining is that if you break what you are saying down in to its component parts then you can see what I am getting at. Throwing food (or any other reward teaches a dog to run to the area of the fall - yes once it gets there it puts its head down to hunt for the edible reward - but what about the several feet/yards of ground it has just run through to get there? - just something to think about. I am struggling to see the correlation of using dead game to introduce a dog to live game? - would you for my benefit please expand on this as I am genuinely interested in the methods and thinking behind it. I use a lot of dead game for retrieving and for teaching dogs to take a line (Both for shot game and blood trailing for deer) but can't get my head around using it teach a dog to quarter - so would be grateful of the explanation. As for who you train with - I don't need to name drop, I've run in the Spaniel championships, the cocker championships and the retriever championships - Ive made up 2 FTCH and have 9 OFTW dogs in my kennels today - across 5 different breeds, plus another 7 with FT awards Yours in sport Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Hi Pegleg, Debate is always good, there is no right and wrong in dog training (apart from the use of force) just different methods to achieve your aim. All I was saying and explaining is that if you break what you are saying down in to its component parts then you can see what I am getting at. Throwing food (or any other reward teaches a dog to run to the area of the fall - yes once it gets there it puts its head down to hunt for the edible reward - but what about the several feet/yards of ground it has just run through to get there? - just something to think about. I am struggling to see the correlation of using dead game to introduce a dog to live game? - would you for my benefit please expand on this as I am genuinely interested in the methods and thinking behind it. I use a lot of dead game for retrieving and for teaching dogs to take a line (Both for shot game and blood trailing for deer) but can't get my head around using it teach a dog to quarter - so would be grateful of the explanation. As for who you train with - I don't need to name drop, I've run in the Spaniel championships, the cocker championships and the retriever championships - Ive made up 2 FTCH and have 9 OFTW dogs in my kennels today - across 5 different breeds, plus another 7 with FT awards Yours in sport Mike I'll pm you so we don't take the thread off topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Am i the only person who hates to see rythmic brainless square dancing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Am i the only person who hates to see rythmic brainless square dancing? thats because you have a proper hunting dog, if it avoids an area there is nothing there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Am i the only person who hates to see rythmic brainless square dancing? There's a big difference between a windscreen wiping spaniel and teaching one to hunt close with a good pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 There's a big difference between a windscreen wiping spaniel and teaching one to hunt close with a good pattern. I know, but it seems many don't seem to appriciate the difference. Saw a cocker last season that looked like it had mental illness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 thats because you have a proper hunting dog, if it avoids an area there is nothing there You wanna see his new trick! stalking rabbits on his belly before i can see them with binos, he points then gets low and wriggles down the hedges etc till we are in range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I know, but it seems many don't seem to appriciate the difference. Saw a cocker last season that looked like it had mental illness that's just a typical cocker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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