Muntjac with 22cf`s....What bullet ?

[njc110381]

Why ask my FEO to remove my expanding conditions? Just to limit my choices? He knows I use A-Max to shoot live quarry - we had a good chat about it and came to the conclusion that if it's not causing the animal to suffer then there is no issue.

[Ackley]

Why ask my FEO to remove my expanding conditions? Just to limit my choices? He knows I use A-Max to shoot live quarry - we had a good chat about it and came to the conclusion that if it's not causing the animal to suffer then there is no issue.

of course he did,tell you what give me his number and i will ask him

[CharlieT]

Ackley

 

You know your right, I know your right and every other intelligent person knows you are.

 

Problem is you can't educate those who are mentally challenged. I gave up trying years ago.

 

I would refer them to the A Max expanding saga of some months ago when Devon and Cornwall Police referred "is A Max section 5 (expanding)" to the HO for a definitive answer. The answer was a most definite no, it is not section 5.

[njc110381]

So now you're calling me a liar are you? Get a grip! I'm so close to biting and having a row over this but you know what, I don't know you and to be perfectly honest I couldn't give a rats **** what you think. And it is only think - you're wrong and that's that. End of arguement.

[Ackley]

So now you're calling me a liar are you? Get a grip! I'm so close to biting and having a row over this but you know what, I don't know you and to be perfectly honest I couldn't give a rats **** what you think. And it is only think - you're wrong and that's that. End of arguement.

yes Iam calling you a liar,whats your FEOs number or even your local firearms dept I will call them just to proove a point

look people do things they shouldnt with a rifle we all know that,but dont go spouting it over the net,do that in company of your mates

[Ackley]

Ackley

 

You know your right, I know your right and every other intelligent person knows you are.

 

Problem is you can't educate those who are mentally challenged. I gave up trying years ago.

 

I would refer them to the A Max expanding saga of some months ago when Devon and Cornwall Police referred "is A Max section 5 (expanding)" to the HO for a definitive answer. The answer was a most definite no, it is not section 5.

I keep trying,but I feel Iam wasting my time with these people who twist and bend the rules to suit themself,I just hope every time a post like this comes up the newbie shooters take note on whats right and ethical to kill animals as humanley as possable

[Dekers]

again call your FEO and ask him to remove your condition to hold expanding ammo,tell him you dont need it as you are using match ammo,lets see then if you still reatin the condition for vermin,fox and deer

again if we wasnt ment to use expanding ammo we wouldnt be allowed the condition.its thats simple

I knoiw the law verty very well it just because it is worded so it can be played with dosent mean you should,you know hat is right and you know what is wrong,the choice is yours but please dont tell people using match ammo on deer is right,as it isnt

 

 

This A Max issue is dumb, in reality and law, actually it is a stupid joke which has now been legally resolved, but you guys are welcome to debate that till the cows come home.

 

With regards the wider issues (doesn't it always go off in another direction) the only specific quarry you have to legally use expanding on is Deer.

 

Now, we can all debate all day about ammo effectiveness on squirrel, fox, rabbit, whatever, but match/non expanding ammo is legal. Expanding, of the appropriate type, is generally accepted as being more effective/humane, but dead is dead whichever way you look at it.

 

...and before you ask, I don't remember the last time I shot any quarry with non expanding!

 

ATB and Happy New Year!

[njc110381]

I haven't copied the whole of the Deer act but this is the section I refer to copied and pasted word for word....

 

Section 4.

SCHEDULE 2E+W+S+N.I.

Prohibited firearms and ammunition

FirearmsE+W+S+N.I.

 

5. Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet.

 

Is an A-Max a soft nosed or hollow nosed bullet or is it not? A simple yes or no answer is what I am looking for.

 

EDIT.... Dekers comment about the issue being dumb in law is quite accurate - the law is dumb, but it is the law.

Edited December 27, 2011 by njc110381

[Ackley]

I haven't copied the whole of the Deer act but this is the section I refer to copied and pasted word for word....

 

Section 4.

SCHEDULE 2E+W+S+N.I.

Prohibited firearms and ammunition

FirearmsE+W+S+N.I.

 

5. Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet.

 

Is an A-Max a soft nosed or hollow nosed bullet or is it not? A simple yes or no answer is what I am looking for.

 

EDIT.... Dekers comment about the issue being dumb in law is quite accurate - the law is dumb, but it is the law.

I know exactly what it states and it needs changing for people like yourself who twist the wording to make themself feel better for using the incorrect bullet on deer

you know whats right and whats wrong but openly admit to using the wrong bullet,as I said have the condition removed on your FAC for expanding ammo and see what else gets removed from your conditions

you can try and make and make excuses for using a match bullet as much as your like but at the end of the day you know its wrong.

no Amax isnt a soft nose or a hollow nosed bullet "its a match bullet which is non expanding which has been prooved"

[CharlieT]

I haven't copied the whole of the Deer act but this is the section I refer to copied and pasted word for word....

 

Section 4.

SCHEDULE 2E+W+S+N.I.

Prohibited firearms and ammunition

FirearmsE+W+S+N.I.

 

5. Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet.

 

Is an A-Max a soft nosed or hollow nosed bullet or is it not? A simple yes or no answer is what I am looking for.

 

EDIT.... Dekers comment about the issue being dumb in law is quite accurate - the law is dumb, but it is the law.

 

Quite why you would wish to argue on this or any other shooting forum for that matter, that a bullet specifically designed for target use which is constructed and designed to "splash" when it hits the target is your preferred bullet choice for deer is quite beyond me.

 

To recommend it's use however, is both illegal and highly irresponsible. I sincerly hope that, for the sake of the deer you say you shoot, you rethink your poor choice of ammunition. The law may be dumb but it seems to me that some of us are downright stupid.

[Mr_Logic]

The A-max is perfectly legal for use on deer in England. The construction must be soft or hollow nosed - it is both.

 

There is a cavity in the nose, making it hollow, which sits behind a plastic tip, which is softer than the copper jacket and therefore constitutes soft-nosed.

 

Whether it complies with the bullet intended by the original wording is doubtful - the Act pre-dates plastic tipped bullets. However, there is no guide to how to read the law, so we must go with the letter of the law. Under that measure, the A-max is legal.

 

Ultimately its construction is identical to the SST or Nosler ballistic tip, so if it is illegal then they all are. Clearly , this is not the case.

 

Whether its use is a good idea or not is another debate, but on Muntjac the 52 amax has worked very, very well for me. The bigger amax on a bigger deer is not the best plan, they end up vapourised.

[Mr_Logic]

Ackley, just read some of the utter rubbish you've been spouting. Calm down, go away and READ THE LAW. I am happy to debate the pros and cons, but the legality is beyond question and it's about time you wound your neck in.

 

A bullet DOES NOT need to be designed to expand for it to be deer-legal in England. most match bullets are legal because they have a bona fide, obvious, easy to verify hollow point. Therefore they are legal. They're not the right choice, but they're legal.

 

If you wish to debate suitability, please continue, but don't talk tosh about the law like it's fact - you will educate less experienced shooters wrongly.

[Ackley]

Ackley, just read some of the utter rubbish you've been spouting. Calm down, go away and READ THE LAW. I am happy to debate the pros and cons, but the legality is beyond question and it's about time you wound your neck in.

 

A bullet DOES NOT need to be designed to expand for it to be deer-legal in England. most match bullets are legal because they have a bona fide, obvious, easy to verify hollow point. Therefore they are legal. They're not the right choice, but they're legal.

 

If you wish to debate suitability, please continue, but don't talk tosh about the law like it's fact - you will educate less experienced shooters wrongly.

another one who obviously has no regard for what is right and what is printed on there FAC,if we wasnt ment to use expanding ammo in England on deer we wouldnt be given the condition to buy them,for gods sake its so simple.

I dare anyone one of you to have the condition for expanding ammo removed and see if your still allowed to shoot deer

guess what your wont

take a look at any traget shooters FAC they will not have the condition to buy expanding ammo "why" because they dont need it

Edited December 27, 2011 by Ackley

[Ackley]

The A-max is perfectly legal for use on deer in England. The construction must be soft or hollow nosed - it is both.

 

There is a cavity in the nose, making it hollow, which sits behind a plastic tip, which is softer than the copper jacket and therefore constitutes soft-nosed.

 

Whether it complies with the bullet intended by the original wording is doubtful - the Act pre-dates plastic tipped bullets. However, there is no guide to how to read the law, so we must go with the letter of the law. Under that measure, the A-max is legal.

 

Ultimately its construction is identical to the SST or Nosler ballistic tip, so if it is illegal then they all are. Clearly , this is not the case.

 

Whether its use is a good idea or not is another debate, but on Muntjac the 52 amax has worked very, very well for me. The bigger amax on a bigger deer is not the best plan, they end up vapourised.

 

total rubbish how the hell can an SST or a Nosler BT be the same as an Amax,please domnt tell me "they look the same"

two are expaning section 5 and the other is match.

why isnt Amax sutiable for the bigger deer ?? your telling us there the same as SSts and Nosler BT,make your mind up

[Mr_Logic]

Ackley, I sat again; READ the law. I have already stated it; I will not do so again.

 

The Amax has an identical internal form to the ballistic tip. The difference is the jacket is thinly constructed, and it expands violently fast. It puts down deer incredibly humanely in all its guises, but the damage is crazy much in the bigger calibres.

 

In England, the design of the bullet is insignificant for the matters of the law. It's there in black and white. FAC conditions for expanding ammo do not make it illegal to use a match bullet, they just empower you to use something else as well.

[Ackley]

Ackley, I sat again; READ the law. I have already stated it; I will not do so again.

 

The Amax has an identical internal form to the ballistic tip. The difference is the jacket is thinly constructed, and it expands violently fast. It puts down deer incredibly humanely in all its guises, but the damage is crazy much in the bigger calibres.

 

In England, the design of the bullet is insignificant for the matters of the law. It's there in black and white. FAC conditions for expanding ammo do not make it illegal to use a match bullet, they just empower you to use something else as well.

 

tell you what Mr Logic lets look at something totally different,just one question and I would like a simple yes ot no then i will move on with my point

do we all have to comply what it states on our FAC ?? (please go and read your FAC if you have one very carefully)

by the way how can a Amax be identical to a BT if the jacket is different by the way the damage isnt crazy in bigger calibers in fact its very minimal Ive used them

Edited December 27, 2011 by Ackley

[njc110381]

Quite why you would wish to argue on this or any other shooting forum for that matter, that a bullet specifically designed for target use which is constructed and designed to "splash" when it hits the target is your preferred bullet choice for deer is quite beyond me.

 

To recommend it's use however, is both illegal and highly irresponsible. I sincerly hope that, for the sake of the deer you say you shoot, you rethink your poor choice of ammunition. The law may be dumb but it seems to me that some of us are downright stupid.

 

I think sometimes it's easy to fall out and disagree on forums because you just don't get to sit down and have a good chat about it. You don't know me and I don't know you but for some reason we seem to clash now and again! There are half a dozen members here who have witnessed me take Deer, a couple who I have helped to be able to shoot Deer themselves and a couple more who have had their certificate restrictions greatly relaxed with a little help from a name the local firearms office can relate to. I'm no armchair shooter.

 

I'm arguing because I'm right. The law clearly states it. I am also arguing because I have used a lot of different bullets from a lot of different calibres and the 52gr A-Max works. Not on paper, not because my mate said so, but because I've shot Deer with them and they kill cleanly. Nobody has turned and yelled at the poster who suggested to use a V-Max - another plastic tipped bullet that is known to violently expand and break up? Why? Have you ever shot a Deer with a .223 and an A-Max or V-Max to make this judgement so strongly? You will shortly have PM - nothing rude just a heads up.

[Ackley]

I think sometimes it's easy to fall out and disagree on forums because you just don't get to sit down and have a good chat about it. You don't know me and I don't know you but for some reason we seem to clash now and again! There are half a dozen members here who have witnessed me take Deer, a couple who I have helped to be able to shoot Deer themselves and a couple more who have had their certificate restrictions greatly relaxed with a little help from a name the local firearms office can relate to. I'm no armchair shooter.

 

I'm arguing because I'm right. The law clearly states it. I am also arguing because I have used a lot of different bullets from a lot of different calibres and the 52gr A-Max works. Not on paper, not because my mate said so, but because I've shot Deer with them and they kill cleanly. Nobody has turned and yelled at the poster who suggested to use a V-Max - another plastic tipped bullet that is known to violently expand and break up? Why? Have you ever shot a Deer with a .223 and an A-Max or V-Max to make this judgement so strongly? You will shortly have PM - nothing rude just a heads up.

mate I have shot hunreds of deer with all manner of bullet combinations and yes I have used match bullets I dont make any excuse apart from I thought it was right and it wasnt not only they are not designed to kill game also you are in breach of your condition on your FAC,I will come to this next

I didnt say you bwere an armchair shooter I didnt say you hadnt shot any deer I never said an Amax wont kill deer I said you are wrong in using match ammo and wrong recomending people to use such ammo on an open forum.thats why I alwasy get involved with topic on match bullets,its nothing personal do what you like behind close doors.

[Mr_Logic]

tell you what Mr Logic lets look at something totally different,just one question and I would like a simple yes ot no then i will move on with my point

do we all have to comply what it states on our FAC ?? (please go and read your FAC if you have one very carefully)

by the way how can a Amax be identical to a BT if the jacket is different by the way the damage isnt crazy in bigger calibers in fact its very minimal Ive used them

Yes we do have to comply with conditions on an FAC. At no point does it state what bullets O should use on deer, merely that I may possess or acquire expanding ammunition to shoot at vermin or deer.

 

Amax makes a bloody great hole in deer, 178 Amax = fist+ sized hole in a roe, I shot one and vowed never again.

[Mr_Logic]

Ackley - exactly what condition do you think would be breached?

[Ackley]

Ackley - exactly what condition do you think would be breached?

right can you and njc answer this question with a yes or no

do we have to comply with what is writen on out FAC

get your tickets out and read them carefully if it helps

Edited December 27, 2011 by Ackley

[Ackley]

Yes we do have to comply with conditions on an FAC. At no point does it state what bullets O should use on deer, merely that I may possess or acquire expanding ammunition to shoot at vermin or deer.

 

Amax makes a bloody great hole in deer, 178 Amax = fist+ sized hole in a roe, I shot one and vowed never again.

OK so we agree we must comply with what is printed on out FAC for example what we can and cannot shoot with a particular caliber ??

Iam sure njc will say the same but just waiting for his responce before I take this one further,but whiule I wiat is there anyone who has only target condition on there FAC reading this

Edited December 27, 2011 by Ackley

[Blunderbuss]

Guys I've got nothing worthwhile to contribute to this, I'm just sat here with a beer and some popcorn enjoying the fireworks However I will throw this into the mix, an image I found on another forum, comparing a V-Max hunting bullet (designed to expand) with an A-Max target bullet (not designed to expand, allegedly). The caption reads:

 

For those who may be interested I have cut longitudinal sections through AMax and VMax bullets. The top section is of a 224 AMax 52gr and the bottom a 224 VMax 55 gr. The bullets were embedded in Epoxy resin in a piece of PVC and machined on a vertical mill with a endmill cutter.

There appears to be very little difference between the two and the performance may well be the same.

 

I'm not stepping into the argument discussion, I just thought this was interesting

 

Edited December 27, 2011 by Blunderbuss

[Mr_Logic]

right can you and njc answer this question with a yes or no

do we have to comply with what is writen on out FAC

get your tickets out and read them carefully if it helps

WHAT CONDITION DO YOU THINK WOULD BE BREACHED?

[Ackley]

WHAT CONDITION DO YOU THINK WOULD BE BREACHED?

all in good time just waiting for njc to reply