notsosureshot Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I am currently looking for a semi auto for use on clays. I shoot both skeet and sporting clays. Never having owned a semi auto before, I'm wondering if a 26" barrel would be ok, or if I should wait for a 28". I like the idea of the light front end of the 26" and also the ease of handling. I'm pretty sure for skeet it would be OK, but what about high birds from the towers on sporting? If anyone could offer me some insight I'd be most grateful. Thanks. PS. I do the odd day on pigeons too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I shoot a 26" and a 28" semi, yes the 26" comes up a bit faster but I'm not that quick a shot so really don't notice the difference, neither do the clays as I hit/miss the same amount with either (or my O/U) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicW Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Add about 2" to the barrel length of an auto to get the rough equivalent of an o/u. The longer forend that contains the magazine puts weight slightly forward in your hands as well. My suggestion is to go for the 28" and you have something that approximates to a 30" o/u. Another thing to consider is fitting in your gun cabinet. A 30" auto,especially if it has extended chokes,won't fit in some cabinets without being dismantled. Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Thanks gents. My main thought is how will the shorter 26" barrels cope on the longer sporting clays. I guess I can choke it down but I was trying to establish if 26" is a total no no for sporting clays in general. The overall length comparison I did know, but isnt that to do with the length of the action, so the shot patterns would still be wider on a 26" auto than a 28" O/U irrespective of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicW Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Barrel length or action type has no effect on shot pattern,that is governed by the choke and the cartridge. Barrel length is a personal thing and is entirely down to you what you get on best with in relation to your shooting style. Changing to an auto in itself means you have to adapt to the different feel of the gun including the 'shuffling' sensation of the gun cycling. Vic. Edited January 6, 2012 by VicW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 But surely if you took it to extremes, say a 10" barrel would spread shot far earlier, even if choked down, than a 16"? It must have some effect, no? Or is it too small to notice with these 2" and 4" differences? Thanks for this, its very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saggy61 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Sorry I would have to disagree with Vic on that the barrel length doesn’t make a difference as it does, If this was the case wildfowlers would all have 26" or 28" barrels, My Beretta is a 30" with extended chokes and it has a hell of a range on it which makes it spot on for the high geese and long range pigeon, But back to clays I use mine at the clay ground and have no trouble I have very high scores with my berretta more than I do with my o/u, My mate has the 28" berretta standard flush chokes and he finds it a very well balanced gun on the trap, I would have a word with you shooting ground to see if anyone has either a 26" or a 28" to have a go with before you buy. Best of luck, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Barrel length has no effect on range, as vic said it's the handling that it effects. The difference in a 10" barrel and a 32" spread wise will be how much the shot opens out in the 22" gap between the two. Probably and inch, two at best. Long tubes are much more pointable on the longer stuff and steady to shoot which is why when i use an auto I prefer the 32" as it is closer to the handling of my K80. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Now I'm confused. A 32" auto is like a 34" O/U. K80 being a Krieghoff I presume. Isnt that a tad long for clays or are we talking wildfowl here? The barrel must have an effect on range, surely? I'd say handling, balance and range if I was to guess. About the 22" disparity, the trouble is, at say 20 yards or some such effective range, that 22" gap multiplies exponentially as the angles are so entirely difference and velocity is also in play. At 20 yards, the shot pattern from a 10" gun will be FAR FAR FAR wider than from a 32" gun because the shot leaves the barrel earlier and begins to fly at an angle sooner. Someone please tell me I havent lost the plot entirely? I dont intend any disrespect but I just cannot believe barrel length on a shotgun has nothing to do with range, physics tells me it must, I'm just not sure of the extent. You're saying 2" difference in spread between a 10" barrel and a 32" barrel. Surely you cannot be serious? I'd say at 20 yards you're looking at a difference measured in increments of 2 feet.... I'm totally open to being proved wrong. I appreciate the interest in this thread. PS. Isnt this why barrels under 24" such as Mossberg Defenders in 16" are illegal because their only effective use is for close range personal protection on account that they "spray" shot widely, rather than direct it. Their effective range is also massively reduced as the pattern is so wide. Edited January 6, 2012 by notsosureshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Its worth saying at this point that I am talking about effective range vs clay targets. Talking about range as in, how far pellets will travel individually is irrelevant because thats down to the load and several other factors, including the gun but not the barrel length on a smooth bore. Discounting friction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 The 34" has worked alright for me in the past... But yes, I'll stick to my guns so to speak and say that the only thing that noticeably affects spread is choke and load choice, not tube length. Re the 16" pumps etc bein illegal, it's to prevent people popping them down their trousers and taking a trip to the pub/bank etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Potter Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Now I'm confused. A 32" auto is like a 34" O/U. K80 being a Krieghoff I presume. Isnt that a tad long for clays or are we talking wildfowl here? The barrel must have an effect on range, surely? I'd say handling, balance and range if I was to guess. About the 22" disparity, the trouble is, at say 20 yards or some such effective range, that 22" gap multiplies exponentially as the angles are so entirely difference and velocity is also in play. At 20 yards, the shot pattern from a 10" gun will be FAR FAR FAR wider than from a 32" gun because the shot leaves the barrel earlier and begins to fly at an angle sooner. Someone please tell me I havent lost the plot entirely? I dont intend any disrespect but I just cannot believe barrel length on a shotgun has nothing to do with range, physics tells me it must, I'm just not sure of the extent. You're saying 2" difference in spread between a 10" barrel and a 32" barrel. Surely you cannot be serious? I'd say at 20 yards you're looking at a difference measured in increments of 2 feet.... I'm totally open to being proved wrong. I appreciate the interest in this thread. PS. Isnt this why barrels under 24" such as Mossberg Defenders in 16" are illegal because their only effective use is for close range personal protection on account that they "spray" shot widely, rather than direct it. Their effective range is also massively reduced as the pattern is so wide. Must admit I don't think barrel length has any effect on range (other than the difference in the two lengths being compared) but I would struggle to explain why as I have not studied ballistics. I also think there is two definitions of range (1) Ultimate range which I would define as the maximum distance shot travels and (2) Effective range which is the maximum distance at which clays can be consistently broken. Again whichever definition is used I don't think it makes a difference, previous poster is correct, shot size and choke are the effecting factors. As for the reason for UK law having a minimum length, 24 inches?, I always assumed it was not because of spread of shot but rather because of the ease of concealment of the shorter barrel. Potter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I think its both. Imagine a shotgun with a 1 inch barrel. What would happen to the shot when fired? The wadding only direct it so far, then the spread begins. This is actually rather interesting, if a little off topic hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Barrel length or action type has no effect on shot pattern,that is governed by the choke and the cartridge. Barrel length is a personal thing and is entirely down to you what you get on best with in relation to your shooting style. Changing to an auto in itself means you have to adapt to the different feel of the gun including the 'shuffling' sensation of the gun cycling. Vic. Barrel length has no effect on range, as vic said it's the handling that it effects. The difference in a 10" barrel and a 32" spread wise will be how much the shot opens out in the 22" gap between the two. Probably and inch, two at best. Long tubes are much more pointable on the longer stuff and steady to shoot which is why when i use an auto I prefer the 32" as it is closer to the handling of my K80. You are looking at this too simplistically, barrel length DOES have an effect on pattern and range, perhaps not as much as many would think but it does! Edited January 6, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 By all means elaborate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 The barrel controls the direction and focus of the explosion created by the cartridge. It directs the shot. Whilst this may ultimately reduce the maximum effective range of individual pellets, due to friction, the overall effective range must improved (within certain limits) as the load is directed towards the target "as one" and not allowed to dissipate. This creates a tighter pattern at 20yd for a 28" barrel than a 24" barrel, thus increasing the killing power at 20yd as more shots hits the target at slightly less velocity in the longer barrel, but the combined impact is what does the damage for a shotgun. We must talk about the effective range of a group of pellets, or pattern, rather than individual projectiles otherwise this makes no sense. I think I'm correct in this hypothesis. Otherwise we would all use 24" barrels for everything. I suppose a semi relevant example would be the development of a shaped charge for military demolitions. They are far more effective at taking a door off its hinges than a simple block of undirected explosive. Its the same principle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Again, not being argumentative but I still believe the same shell/choke combo will be all but identical if shot at a pattern plate @ say 30 yards. The reason we don't shoot 24" guns I'd for most shootin application the handling and paintability is utter toilet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) I'm all for discussion. I dont do internet arguments. I think you'll find that as the shot has the opportunity to spread earlier, that the pattern would be significantly different at 30 yards from barrels of different lengths, assuming the same gun, load, charge and what not. Shot begins to spread as soon as it leaves the barrel as it has no specific direction, unlike a bullet fired from a rifled barrel. Since pellets have no direction, they will travel at "random" angles from the muzzle. The longer you contain them, the tighter the pattern at a longer range. I'd agree that if you shot at 10yd you'd see little difference, but at 30yd you would. Edited January 7, 2012 by notsosureshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 To explain this, think of how muzzle flash looks. It leaves the barrel, but then sort of mushrooms out. Thats exactly what happens with the pellets in a shotgun. The forces change and they begin to direct outwards. The longer you contain that force, the tighter the pattern at any given distance. However, the maximum range is reduced slightly due to friction. This is all entirely based on my own logic, I'm definitely not claiming my opinions as fact here. It just seems to make sense that in shotguns, barrel length helps you shoot targets further away, up to a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Potter Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Where's a nerd when you need one?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Where's a nerd when you need one?? I'm here It just seems to make sense that in shotguns, barrel length helps you shoot targets further away, up to a point. Not so as you would ever notice. Hope that clears it up? Edited January 7, 2012 by poontang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Not really. Fowlers always go for 32" or something right? Why do people on clays go for 28" or some such if the advantage is so slight? Surely unless you're world class, if the difference is tiny, why bother mucking about? Nevermind, I'm just going to get a Franchi SPAS 12 for clays and have done with it. (joke! - see Moddy thread under Clay Shooting) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Not really. Fowlers always go for 32" or something right? Why do people on clays go for 28" or some such if the advantage is so slight? Surely unless you're world class, if the difference is tiny, why bother mucking about? Nevermind, I'm just going to get a Franchi SPAS 12 for clays and have done with it. (joke! - see Moddy thread under Clay Shooting) There was a thread on here about this a while ago and I actually calculated the difference in spread between a 28" and 30" gun assuming the same shot/choke combo. I'll try and find the thread and post it up when I can. I spoke to the guys at Gamebore who confirmed that the difference would be so small as to render it undetectable at the target. To be honest I think you'll find most modern fowlers will use 28"-30" barrels unless mainly shooting high duck/geese where the longer barrels give a smoother swing. Apart from skeet, I'd say most clay shooters prefer 30"-32" barrels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Why the preference if there is no detectable difference though? I'd have thought that the shorter the better, just for handling alone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Why the preference if there is no detectable difference though? I'd have thought that the shorter the better, just for handling alone? Shorter barrelled guns tend to be more 'lively' in the hands, hence more popular with skeet shooters where targets are close and you need to be fairly quick to get onto the 2nd bird of a pair. Longer barrels tend to be steadier and more controlable for more distant targets. Most trap guns and sporters are 30" or 32". Ballistically there really is VERY little difference and it all boils down to how you like the gun to perform in your hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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