To declare or not declare?

[poontang]

Seriously, are you actually reading what I'm writing? Well, you clearly are but I do wonder if you are actually understanding it!

 

I've never said that they take no notice of it, in fact, I've actually pointed out that they do. Someone has even posted a paragraph from the HO guidance saying that cautions are one of the things that the police should consider when processing an application.

 

It seems like so many people on here feel the need to bend over backwards in deference to authority even when there is no reason to do so. Too many people seem to be utterly and irrationally terrified of the police.

 

J

 

Yes, I am reading it, and yes I'm understanding it. I just don't agree with it.

 

I don't think people are terrified of the police. More like they realise it's far better to work with them, as opposed to some who seem to want to find any excuse to hinder them in doing their job.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This shows the point as to why CAUTIONS DO NOT NEED TO BE GIVCEN ON THE FORM. They are open to SERIOUS ABUSE in the way a convition before a court are not so cannot be used to reliably judge a persons character!

 

J.

 

You're making no sense here.

Irrespective of whether it actually mentions cautions in type on the application form, you seem now to be suggesting that a caution can't be a reliable source to judge character?

In which case that suggests that anyone with 2 or 3 cautions shouldn't worry about it, because they're not reliable anyway?

Edited March 11, 2012 by poontang

[MartynGT4]

You're making no sense here.

Irrespective of whether it actually mentions cautions in type on the application form, you seem now to be suggesting that a caution can't be a reliable source to judge character?

In which case that suggests that anyone with 2 or 3 cautions shouldn't worry about it, because they're not reliable anyway?

 

+1

[JonathanL]

A caution is an admission of guilt for a petty offence which is thus disposed of summarily.

 

JonathanL, you want to take more ice with it mate

 

 

EDIT:

 

Have a look here:

 

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/q562.htm

 

And you will already be aware that the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 does not apply to SGC and FAC applications. Accordingly, a caution will need to be disclosed.

 

EDIT EDIT:

 

Application form here- see page 4 and the "guidance notes".

 

No, it won't because you have not been asked to disclose cautions. Just like you have not been asked to disclose parking tickets, fixed penalties for dropping cigarette ends or for leaving your bin out on the wrong day.

 

You are asked to disclose convictions, nothing else.

 

J.

Edited March 11, 2012 by JonathanL

[-oXo-]

You're asking the police for a licence.

The people that cautioned you..

 

Of course you should put it down they will soon let you know either way. If you don't try you will never know.

[Mungler]

A caution is a formal warning that is given to an adult who has admitted the offence. If the person refuses the caution then they will normally be prosecuted through the normal channels for the offence. Although it is not technically classed as a conviction it can be taken into consideration by the Courts if the person is convicted of a further offence.

A reprimand and warning are similar provisions that are given to juveniles. The juvenile must admit the offence in order for a reprimand or warning to be given. If the juvenile has not been reprimanded or warned previously then a reprimand shall be given (unless the offence is so serious as to require a warning). If the person has been reprimanded previously then a warning shall be given. If the juvenile was warned two years or more previously and the offence is not so serious as to require a charge or youth conditional caution, then a further warning may be given on one more occasion.

Any further occurrences will normally result in the juvenile being charged or given a youth conditional caution.

Cautions (including reprimands and warnings) are covered by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 so will become spent immediately (apart from conditional cautions which will become spent after 3 months). This means that if you are asked on an application form if you have a caution you can reply 'no'. For conditional cautions it would be after 3 months since the caution was issued, up until that time you would have to reply 'yes'.

This applies retrospectively so applies to anyone who has ever had a caution (including reprimands and warnings), regardless of when it was given.

If the application form says that the post is exempt from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 then the caution must be disclosed, no matter how long ago it was given.

However, this does not mean that it will not be disclosed on a CRB check. Under the current system all cautions, reprimands and final warnings are disclosed on both Standard and Enhanced CRB disclosures no matter how far back they go. If a caution / reprimand / warning is on record then it will be disclosed.

Cautions will always remain on a person's record. There are only exceptional circumstances when a caution could be removed from a person's record and it is anticipated that such incidents will be rare. Examples of such possible circumstances are that it was found that the original arrest or sample was unlawful or where it was found beyond all doubt that no offence existed. Any requests that fit the above criteria should be directed to the Chief Constable of the force concerned.

 

 

 

Cut and paste from the plod info bank.

 

As per the above a caution is automatically deemed a spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, but that Act doesn't apply to SGC / FAC applications (so the form says).

 

Edit:

 

The form doesn't just ask for convictions, it covers "any offence". The guidance notes on the form are cut and paste below.

 

Note to Part A Question 14

You are not entitled to withold information about any offence. This includes motoring offences, convictions in places outside Great Britain, and (by virtue of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975) convictions which are spent under the 1974 Act. Both a conditional discharge and an absolute discharge count as convictions for this purpose.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Mungler

[JonathanL]

A caution is a formal warning that is given to an adult who has admitted the offence. If the person refuses the caution then they will normally be prosecuted through the normal channels for the offence. Although it is not technically classed as a conviction it can be taken into consideration by the Courts if the person is convicted of a further offence.

A reprimand and warning are similar provisions that are given to juveniles. The juvenile must admit the offence in order for a reprimand or warning to be given. If the juvenile has not been reprimanded or warned previously then a reprimand shall be given (unless the offence is so serious as to require a warning). If the person has been reprimanded previously then a warning shall be given. If the juvenile was warned two years or more previously and the offence is not so serious as to require a charge or youth conditional caution, then a further warning may be given on one more occasion.

Any further occurrences will normally result in the juvenile being charged or given a youth conditional caution.

Cautions (including reprimands and warnings) are covered by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 so will become spent immediately (apart from conditional cautions which will become spent after 3 months). This means that if you are asked on an application form if you have a caution you can reply 'no'. For conditional cautions it would be after 3 months since the caution was issued, up until that time you would have to reply 'yes'.

This applies retrospectively so applies to anyone who has ever had a caution (including reprimands and warnings), regardless of when it was given.

If the application form says that the post is exempt from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 then the caution must be disclosed, no matter how long ago it was given.

However, this does not mean that it will not be disclosed on a CRB check. Under the current system all cautions, reprimands and final warnings are disclosed on both Standard and Enhanced CRB disclosures no matter how far back they go. If a caution / reprimand / warning is on record then it will be disclosed.

Cautions will always remain on a person's record. There are only exceptional circumstances when a caution could be removed from a person's record and it is anticipated that such incidents will be rare. Examples of such possible circumstances are that it was found that the original arrest or sample was unlawful or where it was found beyond all doubt that no offence existed. Any requests that fit the above criteria should be directed to the Chief Constable of the force concerned.

 

 

 

Cut and paste from the plod info bank.

 

As per the above a caution is automatically deemed a spent conviction under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, but that Act doesn't apply to SGC / FAC applications (so the form says).

 

NO, it isn't! The caution is considered 'spent'.

 

A caution is NOT a conviction.

 

The form asks you to disclose CONVICTIONS.

 

Therefore, you do not NEED to declare a caution.

 

J.

[Mungler]

I think the edits clarify

[Diceman]

Hmmm. This seems to be a matter of interpretation so I'd be inclined to go with the opinion of someone qualified and working in the legal profession...is there anyone in this debate that can claim that?

 

Edited March 11, 2012 by Diceman

[Mungler]

There is a grey area going back to the old debate of is a caution a conviction - technically it's not, but at the same time it is because it's an admission of an offence. Everything would be clearer if they tidied the wording on the form.

 

If I went out and got stopped with a load of Class A pills, as a first offence I'd get a caution. Following on, do we think that would be of no interest to my FEO and something I could keep off the form come renewal?

Edited March 11, 2012 by Mungler

[JonathanL]

I think the edits clarify

 

This has been dealt with a few pages back.

 

The question, quite specifically, asks you to disclose convictions. It says, 'Have you ever been convictied of any offence'

 

The note says, 'You are not entitled to withhold information about any offence'.

 

You have to read the note in the context of the question.

 

Therefore, the note only refers to disclosing information about offences you have been CONVICTED of!

 

If the question said, 'Have you ever been convicted of, or cautioned for, any offence', or, 'Have you ever been involved in the commission of any offence', or, 'have you ever admitted guilt to any offence', then I would agree with you. It doesn't though.

 

You do not need to disclose a caution. That's not to say you can't, if you want to, just that you don't NEED to.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Hmmm. This seems to be a matter of interpretation so I'd be inclined to go with the opinion of someone qualified and working in the legal profession...is there anyone in this debate that can claim that?

 

[/quote

 

Sorry but it isn't. The question asks, 'Have you ever been convicted of any offence?'. That is a very straight forward and unambiguous question. You have either been convicted of an offence or you have not. If you have not then you can tick the 'no' box on the form.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

There is a grey area going back to the old debate of is a caution a conviction - technically it's not, but at the same time it is because it's an admission of an offence. Everything would be clearer if they tidied the wording on the form.

 

 

It is not a debate - a caution is NOT a conviction. Google it.

 

The wording could not be more clear. It asks whether you have been CONVICTED of anything. I can't think of how that coud be made any easier.

 

J.

[Diceman]

The British Royal Family are Lizard-like aliens. Google it.

[Mungler]

It's a bit academic really - not disclosing a conviction could lead to you being prosecuted for fibbing on the form.

 

Not disclosing a caution for drunk and disorderly, possession of Class A and say shop lifting (now that's a good night out), well you might not get prosecuted for the way you filled the fom out but your "form" (pardon the pun) will still mean your application will get refused and your inability to volunteer the information when given the chance will not help you pull off "contrite" if the application was genuine.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Mungler

[Gordon R]

Mungler - perhaps best to let it go. You can't have an intellectual debate with someone without a brain. :lol:

 

I have seldom come across someone as patronising as JonathanL. Whenever anyone disagrees, he stresses that you need to read and understand what he has written, as if it actually carries some higher meaning. Oh dear. :no:

 

A man with double standards, but no great IQ. A bit sad really.

 

I expect a top flight, withering put down, but no details of the dodgy cautions he so readily cites.

 

You couldn't make it up. :lol:

[MartynGT4]

It is not a debate - a caution is NOT a conviction. Google it.

 

The wording could not be more clear. It asks whether you have been CONVICTED of anything. I can't think of how that coud be made any easier.

 

J.

 

Well that doesn't change the fact having a caution could prevent you from being granted a SGC or FAC does it? Chanting "It's only a caution, it's only a bloody caution" isn't going to make the chief constable change his mind is it? :no:

 

Anyway hope you enjoyed your evenings trolling

 

To the OP and anyone else worried about applying, just declare the caution and at least you'll know you can't be accused of trying to hide anything. And Jon, if you're unlucky enough to get a caution, do let us know how you get on a renewal time when you leave it off the form eh?

[MartynGT4]

The British Royal Family are Lizard-like aliens. Google it.

 

Ha ha priceless!! :good:

[Sprackles]

I did some googling of my own.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10557250

 

And the page I got it from which is relevant to this argument. Not taking any sides, interesting points raised for both arguments.

 

http://forum.unlock.org.uk/default.aspx?f=23&m=6692

Edited March 11, 2012 by Sprackles

[Gordon R]

Martyn - on the money. :good:

[wy111]

Oh, for gods sake.

I've seen so many **** posts on this, it's unbelievable. Just put down what you know and ask them to check PNC for others, simples.

Bloody law preachers, give it a rest!

[MartynGT4]

Martyn - on the money. :good:

 

Cheers

[JonathanL]

It's a bit academic really - not disclosing a conviction could lead to you being prosecuted for fibbing on the form.

 

Not disclosing a caution for drunk and disorderly, possession of Class A and say shop lifting (now that's a good night out), well you might not get prosecuted for the way you filled the fom out but your "form" (pardon the pun) will still mean your application will get refused and your inability to volunteer the information when given the chance will not help you pull off "contrite" if the application was genuine.

 

Sorry to labour the point here but - no it won't. Not disclosing a caution wil not indeed, cannot, result in a refusal because you have not been asked to disclose it so have done nothing wrong.

 

The fact that you actually have the caution its self may result in refusal (although I very much doubt it) but that would be the same had you told them about it.

 

You cannot be refused for not disclosing a caution beause YOU WERE NOT ASKED TO DISCLOE IT TO BEGIN WITH.

 

j.

[JonathanL]

Well that doesn't change the fact having a caution could prevent you from being granted a SGC or FAC does it?

 

You are quite corect.

 

Chanting "It's only a caution, it's only a bloody caution" isn't going to make the chief constable change his mind is it?

 

Perhaps not but you are missing the point of the discussion. All I have ever said on this point is that you do not NEED to disclose it on the form. The caution may result in you being refused but not a failure to disclose it because you were never asked to disclose it.

 

To the OP and anyone else worried about applying, just declare the caution and at least you'll know you can't be accused of trying to hide anything. And Jon, if you're unlucky enough to get a caution, do let us know how you get on a renewal time when you leave it off the form eh?

 

Well, as I have already pointed out; I have previously not put the fact that I have had speeding fixed penalties on the form (but I did for a conviction for running a red light) yet plenty of people here have said that 'everything' should be declared - or else. A FP and a caution are both admissions of guilt yet I still have my certs, not to mention an RFD and a club approval so that pretty much blows peoples opinions on that score out of the water!

 

J.

[poontang]

 

 

 

 

Well, as I have already pointed out; I have previously not put the fact that I have had speeding fixed penalties on the form (but I did for a conviction for running a red light) yet plenty of people here have said that 'everything' should be declared - or else. A FP and a caution are both admissions of guilt yet I still have my certs, not to mention an RFD and a club approval so that pretty much blows peoples opinions on that score out of the water!

 

J.

 

A Fixed Penalty Notice is NOT an admission of guilt.

 

You will be issued a FPN by the police for minor offences, but if you feel it unjust you can have your day in court and argue your case. Once you've accepted a caution that option is not open to you.

If you accept a FPN and pay the fine then you won't be prosecuted, and no record of the offence will be kept.

[m3vert]

I think Johnathan is bang on the money with his legal interpretation of the wording on the form! it really is pretty clear but sadly folks like GordonR seem to have a personal issue and keep replying with childish jibes

The Police obviously have the right to with-hold issueing a SGC if you have had a caution that they believe is something they are concerned with HOWEVER they will not with-hold a SGC just because you didnt put the caution on the form BECAUSE they havn't ASKED you to include cautions! Two different things guys!

That said if it was me (but it isnt as I dont have a caution) I would answer no to the convictions and add in that I was cautioned for x offence. Simple really but pretty sad seeing adults taking jibes at each other just because they dont agree with what is being said by the other person.