Diceman Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 They knew he was the wrong person as they entered the station, hence they knew there was no threat, yet they shot him anyway. Linky to evidence of this please? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushjob Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) bedwards1966, on 01 April 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:They knew he was the wrong person as they entered the station, hence they knew there was no threat, yet they shot him anyway. name='Diceman' timestamp='1333309798' post='1741057'] Linky to evidence of this please? Thanks Some years ago I trained to respond to a Kratos scenario - we knew that it was possible that we might be a bit too slow in dealing with them and if we were it was endex for us too. The actual Officers who ran into the station and onto the train were running towards a man they genuinely thought was carrying a suicide bomb. One of them grabbed him in a bear hug to stop him reaching for a detonator whilst his colleague shot him. Would you have the balls to do that? I have nothing but respect for those who ran towards the danger. Would you do the same? Whatever the failings of the intel at Stockwell Gate, those Officers who went forward deserved a medal for their bravery. Edited April 1, 2012 by Rushjob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Some years ago I trained to respond to a Kratos scenario - we knew that it was possible that we might be a bit too slow in dealing with them and if we were it was endex for us too. The actual Officers who ran into the station and onto the train were running towards a man they genuinely thought was carrying a suicide bomb. One of them grabbed him in a bear hug to stop him reaching for a detonator whilst his colleague shot him. Would you have the balls to do that? I have nothing but respect for those who ran towards the danger. Would you do the same? Whatever the failings of the intel at Stockwell Gate, those Officers who went forward deserved a medal for their bravery. +1 and well said, not many would run to what could become there grave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 The actual Officers who ran into the station and onto the train were running towards a man they genuinely thought was carrying a suicide bomb. I suspect you are right. However Bedwards thinks otherwise. I wasn't there so before I make up my mind I was just asking what evidence he has for his assertion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_evil Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 its a woman btw Thats one fat ***……….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Some years ago I trained to respond to a Kratos scenario - we knew that it was possible that we might be a bit too slow in dealing with them and if we were it was endex for us too. The actual Officers who ran into the station and onto the train were running towards a man they genuinely thought was carrying a suicide bomb. One of them grabbed him in a bear hug to stop him reaching for a detonator whilst his colleague shot him. Would you have the balls to do that? I have nothing but respect for those who ran towards the danger. Would you do the same? Whatever the failings of the intel at Stockwell Gate, those Officers who went forward deserved a medal for their bravery. I'm with you on that. The code word "Kratos" was given and the officer receiving the message asked them to repeat it which they did. Can you imagine how he must have felt getting given that? Its like a suicide mission from there on in and the final outcome for J.C de M was never in any doubt. His fate was sealed by the giving of the code word. The officer was given that message and he carried it through, that takes immense courage. The fact that the people giving him the message were later allowed to squirm out of responsibility for the order is another matter entirely. And worrying, Gold command, Cressida *****, has since been promoted.(seems the swear filter doesn't like her surname D-i-c-k-s) Edited April 1, 2012 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I suggest reading this. It has some facts in it. They thought he was potentially the person they were after: At some point during this journey towards Stockwell Tube station, 3.3 kilometres (2.1 mi) away, the pursuing officers contacted Gold Command, and reported that Menezes potentially matched the description of two of the previous day's suspects This was said by the surveillance officers following him on his journey to Stockwell station - taken from Wikipedia. If they thought they had the right person, why did the armed undercover surveillance officers who followed him onto the train not shoot him then or before? And when the police arrived they kept the train door open and shouted to them 'He's here!'. Not exactly what you would do with someone who might detonate a bomb at any moment. Answer me this: If the police acted correctly on this, why did they proceed to lie about it afterwards? They lied about his clothing, challenging him, vaulting over a barrier, the number of times they shot him and there wasn't CCTV available. And further, answer me this: If somebody is pinned down with officers and unable to move, how can they possibly detonate a bomb and therefore need shooting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Some years ago I trained to respond to a Kratos scenario - we knew that it was possible that we might be a bit too slow in dealing with them and if we were it was endex for us too. The actual Officers who ran into the station and onto the train were running towards a man they genuinely thought was carrying a suicide bomb. One of them grabbed him in a bear hug to stop him reaching for a detonator whilst his colleague shot him. Would you have the balls to do that? I have nothing but respect for those who ran towards the danger. Would you do the same? Whatever the failings of the intel at Stockwell Gate, those Officers who went forward deserved a medal for their bravery. + another Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I suggest reading this. It has some facts in it. They thought he was potentially the person they were after: This was said by the surveillance officers following him on his journey to Stockwell station - taken from Wikipedia. If they thought they had the right person, why did the armed undercover surveillance officers who followed him onto the train not shoot him then or before? And when the police arrived they kept the train door open and shouted to them 'He's here!'. Not exactly what you would do with someone who might detonate a bomb at any moment. Answer me this: If the police acted correctly on this, why did they proceed to lie about it afterwards? They lied about his clothing, challenging him, vaulting over a barrier, the number of times they shot him and there wasn't CCTV available. And further, answer me this: If somebody is pinned down with officers and unable to move, how can they possibly detonate a bomb and therefore need shooting? As has previously been said... they were given the code word 'Kratos'... from that point on there was only one end result.. I assume by your stance that you have never been in such a situation and I would also presume you have never been subject to a military chain of command such as these guys were in this situation... Sometimes you just have to accept that the world is quite often FUBAR and that innocent people die in order to protect our way of life... The news reports could so easily have gone the other way... '10 armed officers and countless civilians killed by terrorist bomber on london underground!' but thankfully it didn't... give me the actual result over the possible alternative any day! If you think the inquest verdict was wrong, lodge a protest against it... personally I feel your energies would be better served campaigning to somehow reduce the countless number of sensless deaths each year on our roads caused by poor driving, alcohol & drug abuse, poor vehicle maintainance... or go and help out in africa with the fight against aids and malaria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Sometimes you just have to accept that the world is quite often FUBAR and that innocent people die in order to protect our way of life... The news reports could so easily have gone the other way... '10 armed officers and countless civilians killed by terrorist bomber on london underground!' but thankfully it didn't... give me the actual result over the possible alternative any day! We can't accept that it's OK kill everybody who is a suspect for something unless there is absolutely no other way of guaranteeing safety. This case was one where clearly the person detained did not need to be shot, as he was contained and therefore not a threat. If you think the inquest verdict was wrong, lodge a protest against it... personally I feel your energies would be better served campaigning to somehow reduce the countless number of sensless deaths each year on our roads caused by poor driving, alcohol & drug abuse, poor vehicle maintainance... or go and help out in africa with the fight against aids and malaria. What do you think his family have been doing? Nobody in authority is even remotely interested in the truth or justice. The issue is that an innocent man was executed by incompetent officers despite being no threat, and the officers above them were also incompetent. They then lie about it and yet after all this they get away with it because of who they are. And that's OK then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I suggest reading this. It has some facts in it. They thought he was potentially the person they were after: This was said by the surveillance officers following him on his journey to Stockwell station - taken from Wikipedia. If they thought they had the right person, why did the armed undercover surveillance officers who followed him onto the train not shoot him then or before? And when the police arrived they kept the train door open and shouted to them 'He's here!'. Not exactly what you would do with someone who might detonate a bomb at any moment. Answer me this: If the police acted correctly on this, why did they proceed to lie about it afterwards? They lied about his clothing, challenging him, vaulting over a barrier, the number of times they shot him and there wasn't CCTV available. And further, answer me this: If somebody is pinned down with officers and unable to move, how can they possibly detonate a bomb and therefore need shooting? I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of the officer's actions. Only they can tell us what was going through their minds when they pulled the trigger. I agree though that both the Met press releases and the newspaper's interpretation of these are both difficult to justify. But your earlier accusation was that the officers on the ground KNEW he was the wrong person yet still shot him...that was the bit that worried me. Now you say "They thought he was potentially the person they were after" Which is a bit of a 180. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Two firearms officers have a photo taken doing something very stupid. It was an error of judgement and in poor taste. Just how did this thread get de-railed onto something far more serious, which has turned quite nasty? :no: :no: Perhaps it needs closing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 still failing to see what the stockwell shooting has to do with the original post lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I've no doubt if ordinary members of the public were pointing shotguns at each other, the police would come down pretty hard on them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 still failing to see what the stockwell shooting has to do with the original post lol I'm not actually sure either, it just happened! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogone Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 A lot of cops all over the world are not gun enthusiasts/ just do it as part of the job. Here in Canada a cop shot his best friend in the head from a few inches with an "unloaded pistol" during a training exercise (DEAD) Another mountie was startled while in a ranchers yard and -slapped leather-and shot himself in the leg.The lying cop said the rancher did it but a judge only took two hours to decide otherwise. Most of our cops just carry to get the pay check/ a scary few are looking for a reason to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 still failing to see what the stockwell shooting has to do with the original post lol threads evolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted April 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 threads evolve. I agree the first post was about the competence of armed police. It evolved but is still on the competence of armed police in a different situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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