gazzthompson Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) Morality is not exclusively a Religious thing. If people need a 2000 year old book to tell them what's right or wrong... well , ****, my faith in humanity has been miss placed. What religious morality shall we choice from ? Stoning people for adultery? Death for apostasy ? Slavery being okay? Punishment for breaking the Sabbath? Morality should, and has been thought out, reasoned and discussed through out the years. Slavery not being okay, equality of women, equality of different sexual orientation, these are all new moralities done through reason.. Religion has been dragged kicking and screaming through out time by secular and logical reason to keep it up to date.. I cant wait for this day: "Atheists likely to outnumber Christians in England in 20 years" http://richarddawkins.net/articles/645255-atheists-likely-to-outnumber-christians-in-england-in-20-years/comments?page=2 Edited June 6, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosshair Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 The actual date of Jesus' birth is not recorded in the bible. The date of 25th December was selected by the church in the 4th century. It was mainly chosen to supplant the many pagan midwinter and solstice festivals celebrated at around that time. Christmas trees, wreaths, holly, mistletoe and many other aspects of "Christmas" are actually echoes of much older religions which have been celebrated at around that time, for far longer than the Christian nativity has. So to answer your question, yes So you celebrate an older religion, which one is that ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humperdingle Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) Well put Wurzle, a lot of so called atheists claiming they do not believe is sometimes a macho thing. I don't think so. Whilst i'm sure many believers will explain that 'everything happens for a reason' or 'God's will'... I've sat many days on the oncology ward in the hospital, seen countless tiny little kids wheeled off to theatre, and sometimes, wheeled off to the morgue after their fights with cancer have come to an end. They're usually followed by their - quite frankly - 'broken' parents. Doing that might well turn a person strongly either way. For me, it made my disbelief set in concrete. Edited June 6, 2012 by humperdingle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Religion still plays an important part in society today. I think of the church as a tool to be used to spread morality in a time where, as discussed earlier, it is fading. Morals and standards in this country were founded on the catholic/Christian faith, and the diminishing following of the church is becoming more and more noticeable. Are we losing sight of what is right and wrong? There is no doubt that there are many, many decent christians who do a lot of good in the world. But looking to the catholic church as an organisation for guidance on morality is like asking Harold Shipman for healthcare advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) So you celebrate an older religion, which one is that ?. You don't need too celebrate anything too enjoy a cultural day off. Edited June 6, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Irrespective of belief I believe the modern church (as I alluded to in my post in the other thread about gay marriage) is nowadays more of an institution that does many good things as it is a governor of doctrine. I know not everyone is lucky enough (sorry, by lucky I mean worked hard enough) to live in a pretty Cotswold town like I do, but you know what, this place (and many others) would be so much the poorer for not having the church and all that goes with it. Man created religion sure, but did man create God - well now there's a question which I am 100% unfit to answer. The truth is nobody knows for sure, do they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Catholic :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Well put Wurzle, a lot of so called atheists claiming they do not believe is sometimes a macho thing. What an extraordinary statement. Would you care to elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) Like many I suspect, I have my private beliefs and 'faith'. I do however value the Christian church as part of our history, architecture etc. Homosexuality has been around for ever, rather on the fringes of societies, allowing each to do their own thing without shoving peoples noses in anyone else's belief. There but not there - like mistresses. Without that 'respect' for others beliefs, we generate friction and sectarianism emerges. Lets all do our own thing with respect for each other but lets not expect to be fully respected for anything other than the fact each of us is a person of worth. Pushing your difference in anyones face is not Christian, its not usually acceptable but when it confronts another persons belief head-on, thats disrespectful, especially when theres no need. A mans word used to be his bond - why involve the Church in that? Edited June 6, 2012 by Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I do not believe in a god or an afterlife having said that I can quite understand people believing that there must be more to life than just this. when you now someone and they die it gives people comfort to believe that there spirit goes on also people worry what is the meaning of life as I see it we are borne we are alive for a bit then we die and that is it what is it for why do things have to have a reason things happen that is it like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosshair Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 What an extraordinary statement. Would you care to elaborate? No need to elaborate, the statement is clear enough for anyone to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Irrespective of belief I believe the modern church (as I alluded to in my post in the other thread about gay marriage) is nowadays more of an institution that does many good things as it is a governor of doctrine. I know not everyone is lucky enough (sorry, by lucky I mean worked hard enough) to live in a pretty Cotswold town like I do, but you know what, this place (and many others) would be so much the poorer for not having the church and all that goes with it. I don't disagree, Thunderbird, but for religion to claim exclusivity on morality and good deeds is arrogant in the extreme. Man created religion sure, but did man create God - well now there's a question which I am 100% unfit to answer. The truth is nobody knows for sure, do they? And so we arrive at Pascal's Wager...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) Short, but straight to the point. Edited June 6, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 The church showing the way morally, don't make me laugh, the church of all Christian faiths just recently have had scandal after scandal, most of the church leaders have no moral compass, and they would be the last people I would listen to. My Mother and Father instilled in me right from wrong, and manners etc. they were not church goers, I am not a church goer, and my now grown up sons do not go to church, they also have a good set of morals,and know right from wrong. Church showing leadership don't make me laugh. As for a macho thing, grow up, if you get comfort from it like my wife does then fill your boots, but it is a story designed to give you parables to live by, which have been twisted by the church for thei own means. I am not macho, just cannot swallow a load of old bull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 No need to elaborate, the statement is clear enough for anyone to understand. So you are saying that I, whilst claiming to be an atheist, am actually a believer who is trying to sound macho by pretending not to believe? As I said, an extraordinary statement that does your argument no credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Short, but straight to the point. A compelling argument indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Gotta admit, i've heard a lot of rubbish but claiming atheism is some sort of "macho" thing is new too me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Agnostic atheist here Me..im a Dyslexic Agnostic Insomniac...I lie awake at night wondering if there is a dog... I'll get me coat ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Diceman: "I don't disagree, Thunderbird, but for religion to claim exclusivity on morality and good deeds is arrogant in the extreme." I agree, and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but I didn't suggest for a moment that it did or does. Diceman: "And so we arrive at Pascal's Wager...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager" Just read up on that, interesting stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 So you celebrate an older religion, which one is that ?. I was brought up in a strongly Christian household and would have called myself Christian until very recently (I'm 48). I have done a lot of reading, soul searching and questioning on this recently and am far less certain about this now. I would say I am agnostic with atheistic leanings - Richard Dawkins has had a big hand in this. The main reason though is that I have questioned things that I used to take for granted, because that's what I was taught. Most of them don't stand up to scrutiny. Despite this, as others on the thread have said - Christianity has had a huge cultural impact on this country, and it's left it'#s mark on me - even though I no longer really believe. I can appreciate church architecture, choral singing, Christian art and the traditions and some of the teachings of the church, without necessarily believing in a Christian God. Some of the moral teachings are also valid, at least those in the NT. But the bible is written by men, with arbitrary selection of which texts were included/excluded and the OT is full of murder, rape, slavery and genocide - most of it encouraged by a violent, angry God. If you're telling me I can't celebrate Christmas unless I'm a practising Christian, do you believe that you should be stoned to death if you've ever failed to keep the Sabbath? Midwinter can be a depressing time with the Spring a long way off. It has always been a time of feasts and celebration. You don't have to believe in a pagan, Christian or any other God to enjoy that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosshair Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 We all live, more or less within what is written in the ten commandments, whether we believe they were handed down by god to Moses on a tablet of stone is entirely up to the individual. I think most of our modern laws today generate from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I was brought up in a strongly Christian household and would have called myself Christian until very recently (I'm 48). I have done a lot of reading, soul searching and questioning on this recently and am far less certain about this now. I would say I am agnostic with atheistic leanings - Richard Dawkins has had a big hand in this. The main reason though is that I have questioned things that I used to take for granted, because that's what I was taught. Most of them don't stand up to scrutiny. Despite this, as others on the thread have said - Christianity has had a huge cultural impact on this country, and it's left it'#s mark on me - even though I no longer really believe. I can appreciate church architecture, choral singing, Christian art and the traditions and some of the teachings of the church, without necessarily believing in a Christian God. Some of the moral teachings are also valid, at least those in the NT. But the bible is written by men, with arbitrary selection of which texts were included/excluded and the OT is full of murder, rape, slavery and genocide - most of it encouraged by a violent, angry God. If you're telling me I can't celebrate Christmas unless I'm a practising Christian, do you believe that you should be stoned to death if you've ever failed to keep the Sabbath? Midwinter can be a depressing time with the Spring a long way off. It has always been a time of feasts and celebration. You don't have to believe in a pagan, Christian or any other God to enjoy that Well said... Though Pagan virtues on on rebirth and fertility both human and agricultural are very interesting and the celebrations were full on involving much drinking and debauchery even the occassional "wickerman" type sacrifice...I suspect there is still a little inherent and latent Paganism in all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) ten commandments? other than killing and stealing, what other modern laws have any relevance, Thou shalt have no other gods before me? Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them? Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy? And killing and stealing being bad pre dates Christianity, do we really need a book and fear of god to stop killing and stealing? if you do... well... Edited June 6, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Diceman: "I don't disagree, Thunderbird, but for religion to claim exclusivity on morality and good deeds is arrogant in the extreme." I agree, and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but I didn't suggest for a moment that it did or does. Diceman: "And so we arrive at Pascal's Wager...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager" Just read up on that, interesting stuff. Certainly wasn't a dig at you Thunderbird, sorry if it came over that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Certainly wasn't a dig at you Thunderbird, sorry if it came over that way. No worries mate, all good this end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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