Load Data for Damascus SBS.

[Tin Man Work]

Hi Guys,

 

Anyone have a good menu for 12G cartridges to suit Damascus barrels from 1846? The gun, a WH Pollard is nitro proofed 2 3/4" chambers, and I've been shooting off the shelf Hull 24 gram fibre loads with no problems; looking to work up a clay target and a game load in fibre wads to reload to myself.

 

I've got reloading components but that's for the .410, 28G and brass loading I already do, plus some 12G subsonics, so OK for cases and wad, overshot cards, etc, for the 12G - I'm expecting to need a new powder and probably primers though I've a draw full of CX2000s. Going to use my MEC 600 Jr so would prefer a 6 point crimp.

 

I set out to find a comparable plastic wad load and convert, but most of the loads are well over 24 gram which leaves me a bit stuck as I don't want to experiment too much.

 

Any help much appreciated!

 

Thanks

[ChrisAsh]

Would not the plastic be better on the Damascus barrels than loose shot

 

A lot of people now use 21 or 24 gram for clays unless in comp's

[Tin Man Work]

Probably would be, but useless if you can only use fibre wads where you like to shoot.

[roughshooter]

The data would be the same as for steel barrels but will of course depend on the soundness of the gun as with any weapon.

What powders so you have access to?

Regards

Graham

[Lord Geordie]

For the age of the gun I would want to look after it more and go 21g loads. A lot of lads at the clay grounds are choosing lighter loads now. I had a W R Leeson 1880 SxS and used 2 1/2" carts "chambered for it" and tried a 30g load. I wasn't happy so a friend loaded me some 24g and I shot well and felt much happier.

[Tin Man Work]

The data would be the same as for steel barrels but will of course depend on the soundness of the gun as with any weapon.

What powders so you have access to?

Regards

Graham

 

Hi Graham,

 

Alliant 410, Unique, both not suited, plus brass reloading powders of H110 and Lil Gun - I'm expecting to get a new powder for this loading.

 

Cheers

[Guest cookoff013]

Hi Guys,

 

Anyone have a good menu for 12G cartridges to suit Damascus barrels from 1846? The gun, a WH Pollard is nitro proofed 2 3/4" chambers, and I've been shooting off the shelf Hull 24 gram fibre loads with no problems; looking to work up a clay target and a game load in fibre wads to reload to myself.

 

I've got reloading components but that's for the .410, 28G and brass loading I already do, plus some 12G subsonics, so OK for cases and wad, overshot cards, etc, for the 12G - I'm expecting to need a new powder and probably primers though I've a draw full of CX2000s. Going to use my MEC 600 Jr so would prefer a 6 point crimp.

 

I set out to find a comparable plastic wad load and convert, but most of the loads are well over 24 gram which leaves me a bit stuck as I don't want to experiment too much.

 

Any help much appreciated!

 

Thanks

 

tm,

 

what is the shotgun proofed to? if its been nitro proofed there will be information leading to this. find this information and get back to us.

 

the info should be stamped on or near the chamber. if its been re-proofed, those stamps should be very clear. the previous proof stamps may be still valid or stamped out.

[BlaserF3]

http://www.4-10.co.uk/ This is run by a very knowledgeable reloader for old guns etc; I would ask him as he has written some very informative information, mainly for the US market on light loads.

[Tin Man Work]

Guys,

 

Thanks for the replies - the gun is London Nitro proofed for 2 3/4" chambers, I wish I'd just asked for a 24 gram fibre load as I've complicated things with the 'D' word. Doh!

 

The SBS came from the Cotswold Gunroom (http://www.cotswoodgunroom.com/), Wayne Hurt, who specialises in restoring old guns in Lechlade. That's how I know the gun has been restored and nitro proofed, and his recommendation was to use 24g Fibre cartridges for game, 21 gram on clays - I'm happy with his guidance (not putting that up for debate here) but I reload and would like to produce my own reloads for this old girl.

 

Fibre loads I find hard to find, and the reloading experts on this forum haven't replied to any PMs, so I've asked on the forum on the off chance that someone out there is already making what I'm after and I can follow their lead, so to speak. I've e-mail C&G and a few powder manufacturers as well as well but nothing back yet.

 

I'm shooting Hull 24g Fibres and they're a lovely cartridge with this old stick, but if anyone knows of any 21 or 24 Fibre loads, I would be you number one fan!

 

Thanks again

 

Tin Man

Edited July 20, 2012 by Tin Man Work

[BlaserF3]

PM sent.

[Guest cookoff013]

Guys,

 

Thanks for the replies - the gun is London Nitro proofed for 2 3/4" chambers, I wish I'd just asked for a 24 gram fibre load as I've complicated things with the 'D' word. Doh!

 

The SBS came from the Cotswold Gunroom (http://www.cotswoodgunroom.com/), Wayne Hurt, who specialises in restoring old guns in Lechlade. That's how I know the gun has been restored and nitro proofed, and his recommendation was to use 24g Fibre cartridges for game, 21 gram on clays - I'm happy with his guidance (not putting that up for debate here) but I reload and would like to produce my own reloads for this old girl.

 

Fibre loads I find hard to find, and the reloading experts on this forum haven't replied to any PMs, so I've asked on the forum on the off chance that someone out there is already making what I'm after and I can follow their lead, so to speak. I've e-mail C&G and a few powder manufacturers as well as well but nothing back yet.

 

I'm shooting Hull 24g Fibres and they're a lovely cartridge with this old stick, but if anyone knows of any 21 or 24 Fibre loads, I would be you number one fan!

 

Thanks again

 

Tin Man

i`d just like to chime in old chap.

 

just what is the old girl proofed too?, i`m sure we can come up with a very suitable load. there are many game loads that can be made. some are safe for the various proofs that are present.

just for the record, whome ever told you that 24g loads and 21g loads are suitable may not know anything about loading these little pocket rockets. these silly light loads often need very high pressures to get them shifting. especially in fibre, which needs more and more pressure to get them burning right.

regardless of whether its made of steel / damascus / licorice / treacle / wood / or other leads me to believe its proofed to a certain pressure or load. it is certainly advisable to load to a certain pressure. as thats the nature of cartridges. all cartridges need pressure to burn

 

if it is 2,3/4" chamber and proofed for standard loads, then there is something that can be done....

i have reloaded low pressure loads, low velocity loads, which are perfect for sxs game guns. i reload them myself, why should i hammer the hell out of my shoulder and the gun?

 

you see, in the old days, loads like 1600 fps didnt exist, us mere mortals were reduced to shooting 1100fps loads and below, in our devoted little light sxs, so naturally the little guns run really well with the traditional low speed loads. i cant see it being enjoyable shooting 1600fps of 1,1/8oz loads.....

 

what you need is handicap loads that are below the proof pressure. but slow enough to enjoy shooting.

 

most loads you will encounter are the american proof loads. proofed to beyond the european proof system (they have a 11500psi limit, we have a 10500psi /740bar limit)

 

faster powders work better with fibre loads, and also to set "higher" pressures (as with fibre and plastic)

 

i have by far more experience loading low speed shells, than fast ones.

 

my final question is, is it proofed for 740? 650? or beyond? give me a yell, i may be able to help.

[Tin Man Work]

Thanks for the help in this Guys - I'm learning as I go.

 

Cookoff - Thanks, understood on the pressures and fibre points, and no I don't need a cartridge on steroids either! Just need a comfortable but effective game cartridge at the end of the day.

 

The proof marks on the gun contradict a bit of what I thought was the case (and I will be checking back with the seller, but not seeing a huge problem): The marks showing are:

 

'12', Crowned BV, Crowned BP, Crowned NP. Diamond with 12 over C. 2 1/2 Nitro proof 1 1/8 Oz. wmp.

 

So it's proofed for 2 1/2 chambers not the 2 3/4 as I don't see any reproofing indications, and probably proofed around 1925 from what I've read today and pre 1989 if I'm feeling clever. No pressure figures though.

 

Thanks

Edited July 21, 2012 by Tin Man Work

[Guest cookoff013]

that tells us alot.

2.5" chamber, 1,1/8oz loads. i`m still betting its got a figure like x tons / sq inch or so.

but it gives us a start.

[Lord Geordie]

Guys,

 

Thanks for the replies - the gun is London Nitro proofed for 2 3/4" chambers, I wish I'd just asked for a 24 gram fibre load as I've complicated things with the 'D' word. Doh!

 

The SBS came from the Cotswold Gunroom (http://www.cotswoodgunroom.com/), Wayne Hurt, who specialises in restoring old guns in Lechlade. That's how I know the gun has been restored and nitro proofed, and his recommendation was to use 24g Fibre cartridges for game, 21 gram on clays - I'm happy with his guidance (not putting that up for debate here) but I reload and would like to produce my own reloads for this old girl.

 

Fibre loads I find hard to find, and the reloading experts on this forum haven't replied to any PMs, so I've asked on the forum on the off chance that someone out there is already making what I'm after and I can follow their lead, so to speak. I've e-mail C&G and a few powder manufacturers as well as well but nothing back yet.

 

I'm shooting Hull 24g Fibres and they're a lovely cartridge with this old stick, but if anyone knows of any 21 or 24 Fibre loads, I would be you number one fan!

 

Thanks again

 

Tin Man

 

Here ya go fella.

 

http://www.cairngormss.com/products/cartridges/clay/performance/club/club-12-gauge-21g-fibre-wad.html

Edited July 22, 2012 by Lord Geordie

[Lord Geordie]

http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/8030/Hull-Comp-X-12g-Fib-21g-7.5/

[Lord Geordie]

24g GAME loads

 

http://www.cairngormss.com/products/cartridges/game/traditional-loads/classic/classic-12-gauge-24g-fibre-wad.html

[Salopian]

Try this load which I like, fibre wad, length to suit case 65mm 4mm overpowder card wad, 26grams of shot with 19 or 20 grains of Vectan AS powder. I have used 22 grains without it being uncomfortable.

[Tin Man Work]

Thanks again for the replies guys.

 

LG - I'm after reloading around 24 gram loads, thanks for linking the cartridges but I want to load them, not buy them (I have the Hull cartridges at my ground for that mate). Couldn't agree more with the lighter loads though - I always shot 28gram through my 525 but did find it better with lighter loads (must be getting old).

 

Salopian - Bang on! That's what I was hoping for so many thanks - a load I can start looking to reproduce; Just need to get some Vectan AS to do this now.

 

Thanks

Edited July 22, 2012 by Tin Man Work

[Tin Man Work]

Things are starting to come together now - a couple of people who I've been in touch with have come back with some very good initial responses, and some good leads are being followed up regarding 24g fibre lead loads in 2 1/2" Hulls; when the details are sorted out I will make sure I post up the results and who's helped out for anyone else looking for the same or similar in the future.

 

Damm goof people on this forum!

 

Watch this space..............

Edited July 24, 2012 by Tin Man Work

[Tin Man Work]

OK, first load in from Amelia at Clay and Game. They didn't have a 24g load for the 65mm case but worked on it and came up with;

 

65mm Cheddite Case

CX2000 primer

18 grains CSB5

4mm nitro card

21mm fibre wad

3mm cork

24grams No.7 Lead

6point crimp finish.

 

I'll have the option of using 6 or 7 shot and room to go up to 20grains of CSB5 as the it has a bit of give in it. and will be with me Tuesday so I'll get the load put together and tried out - update this when I can.

 

Also got one of their metal crimp cutters for the MEC Jr for the new 70mm cases I'm trimming to 65mm, and a load of new paper cases I am loading as well (once loaded and crimped I will go back to the MEC plastic/twisty pre crimp thingy.

 

Cheers

 

Tin Man

[Tin Man Work]

Well C&G came through on the load data and the components - a bit of MEC tweaking and I was off loading cheddite and paper cases, with their brass pre-crimp part in the MEC working wonders on new cases. Then off to my local shooting ground with the old Pollard and it all shot beautifully, so I am one happy bunny and won't be needing to follow up on the lads who have said they'd come back, thanks for the responses.

 

Cheers

[Tin Man Work]

Update on this - the final load settled on was 19 grains of CSB5 due to the bushings available, and this load has been put into both paper and plastic cheddite 65mm cases with no problems, also loaded with 9's for clays and 6's for birds, no problems.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[Lord Geordie]

TM

 

Whats the velocity on these home brews? Is there any info on the pressure they produce?

 

Sounds like a good basis for a 70mm fibre load with a little more wadding.

[Guest cookoff013]

i routinely load 32g subs with 12-70mm, 18grain vectan AS. 4mm powdercard, 20mm fibre, the pressure is really limp though. 17 grains gave a maximum of 400bar, but that must have been a heat acclimatised shell, as the other shells in the shot sequence were "way" cooler in pressure.