High Performance cartridges

[timps]

as i have said before, the cip have 2 tier proffing system.

 

of corse there is a big difference in pushing a steel load and lead load down the barrel. but both the pressures are mesured in the same 1" or metric 25/30mm into the chamber.

 

from a data pint of view, the cartridge either conforms to cip or does not. the data does not take into account steel or lead. thats in the load declaration.

 

why are you fixated on the lack of compression and or hardness of steel shot? thats why we have slow powder to deal with that.

 

the 3.5" benelli is designed to be run upto 14000psi every shot. thats the maximun for saami 3.5" shells.

Ok so you accept there is a difference.

 

The reason I focus on the hardness of steel is that all forcing cones, bore dimensions and taper to the chokes are not the same from each manufacturer. Manufacturing tolerances vary and basic material failure can happen under different stresses. Seeing as you don’t know what the length of the taper and how severe it is, you cannot say for certain that it will cope with the harder material as it will exert a different force onto the gun than lead. The only way to know is to test it with that gun or set the cartridges way below worst case scenario of a normal nitro proof as in the case of standard steel. HP steel requires a reproof to that standard. If your steel shot jams in a forcing cone, for instance, then the pressure will be a lot greater than the designed cartridge pressure. The same lead shot might compress and go through.

 

As I have said all along you can get a gun passing the PSF** pressure test that could fail the fleur de lys because of the above. The only reason I got involved with this is post was to say don’t assume that just because your gun is proofed to PSF** 1370 it is HP steel shot proofed.

 

This is also the stance of the CIP for HP steel shot, is it overkill, maybe, but it is what they say so argue with them.

 

I know someone with a tight fixed choke gun with PSF** are you saying that gun is ok for HP steel ? If not then that is my whole point, if yes then I would like to know how you know for certain it will be ok.

 

Your gun was designed to be run up to 14000 psi but it was still sent to the proof house to be tested to PSF** why? Because manufacturing defects and things can fail.

 

If you want it to shoot HP steel then it has to be tested at 1370 with steel shot not lead simple as that according to the CIP.

 

If you want to disagree with them then that’s up to you, you are not arguing with me you are arguing with them, so be my guest let me know how it goes for you after you have contacted them and told them they are wrong.

[GingerCat]

If I had a fixed choke i would worry about it but as I can pick and choose I won't loose any sleep knowing that my gun is proofed to 1370 bar and is used by countless Americans to fire huge loads of us hp steel at ducks and things with no issues.

If one was to fire steel through a fixed choke that's too tight then they're asking for trouble anyways.

"Choice of ammunition

SuperNova can use cartridges with a 70 mm (2 3/4), 76 mm(3) or 89 mm (3 1/2) case, armed with either lead or steel shot. Chokes marked * (full) and ** (Imp. modified) are not recommended for use with steel shot.

 

Isn't any steel load over 2 3/4 hp anyway?

[AlistairB]

If i can add my tuppence, i had this very discussion with DavidBASC when he posted his steel shot thread. I'd been offered a Beretta 686 proofed **PSF but not FDL. My theory was that if the burst test for FDL and **PSF were the same pressure, then surely the risk of bursting a barrel would be down to choking, so theoretically an open choked gun would be fine.

 

Initially, he felt my logic was sensible, but on further checking, sent me the following response:

 

According to CIP an HP steel/steel-like cartridge is to be fired only through a gun that has passed steel shot proof (which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel) and the gun then marked “Steel Shot” and with Fleur-de-Lys.

 

A gun not so marked would be deemed not to have passed steel shot proof and so not suitable/safe to fire HP steel/steel-like cartridges. That is not to say that such a gun would necessarily be damaged but CIP would maintain that the risk of its being so is increased.

 

 

So i guess it's up to you to decide, however, having run HP Steel through an M2 with **PSF but not FDL with no issues, i'm still inclined to go with Timps on this - i guess it's up to you!

 

AB

[IEH]

"Choice of ammunition

SuperNova can use cartridges with a 70 mm (2 3/4), 76 mm(3) or 89 mm (3 1/2) case, armed with either lead or steel shot. Chokes marked * (full) and ** (Imp. modified) are not recommended for use with steel shot.

 

Isn't any steel load over 2 3/4 hp anyway?

 

That is certainly my understanding!

[timps]

Whether that's the case or not It doesn't mean you can use HP steel, it just means if a manufacturer produced a non HP steel cart in bigger than 2 3/4 you would be able to use it.

 

According to CIP you can only use HP steel in a steel proofed gun and PSF** 1370 is not the same standard as steel proof according to CIP and as outlined in my posts, links and AlistairB's post above.

 

Benelli have to follow what the CIP say if they want to sell guns in the UK or it's member states, writing something contrary to CIP regulations in the manual would get them in a whole heap of trouble from a legal stand point.

 

Like I have said it is completely up to the shooter to decide & I dont for one second think that it is going to be an issue on modern multi choke guns. As you and plenty of other lads shoot HP steel in their non steel shot proofed guns it proves that it can be done without issue. But there is an increased risk as your gun has not been proofed to the higher standard.

 

My point was the CIP gun proof for HP steel is not the same as the PSF** 1370 gun proof for lead, there are significant differences. We can sit here and debate whether these differences mean a jot on a modern gun but what we cannot do is say the differences dont exist between the two proof standards.

 

Armed with that knowledge you now know your gun has not been proofed to the higher CIP standard & Benlli are not saying it is ok to shoot HP steel in a gun not bearing the fleur-de-lis if they wish to sell guns in CIP member states.

 

So as I say it's your call not Benelli or CIP saying it's ok because they don't.

[GingerCat]

 

That is certainly my understanding!

And mine.

 

The way I see it is thus,, the maker has stated in it's manual that the end user can shoot steel and lead right up to 3.5 inch.

Now all steel carts over 2 3/4 inch and to be fair some under are HP.

If it couldnt take an HP shell at 3.5 inchs it would say in red capitals DO NOT USE HP STEEL SHOT IN THIS GUN IT IS NOT APPROVED or something very similar. It does not say that.

It can therefore be implied they are safe to use.

No one has sued them yet as the Manuela haven't changed and would have in a heart beat.

 

The proof pressue is the same for lead or steel.

The advice with chokes remains the same regardless of the gun being super proofed in holy water or not, ie don't use anything tighter than half and preferably a quarter.

Cip can say what it likes as can Sammie, their advice differs it seems and the yanks throw steel out of unproofed guns all day long that only bear at most the Italian superior proof marks.

Every gun smith I have asked, and I have asked a few have all said my 390 will take 3 inch HP shells all day and does do over the pond. Their advice was to use nothing tighter than half choke.

 

That's my view, each to their own, I wouldnt throw the carts through an old gun that had the proof marks but was worn through use, or a fixed choke higher than half.

Each to their own.

[hawkfanz]

my a300 is certainly proofed for hp steel,ive had it from new,feb 2012.

[timps]

And mine.

 

The way I see it is thus,, the maker has stated in it's manual that the end user can shoot steel and lead right up to 3.5 inch.

Now all steel carts over 2 3/4 inch and to be fair some under are HP.

If it couldnt take an HP shell at 3.5 inchs it would say in red capitals DO NOT USE HP STEEL SHOT IN THIS GUN IT IS NOT APPROVED or something very similar. It does not say that.

It can therefore be implied they are safe to use.

No one has sued them yet as the Manuela haven't changed and would have in a heart beat.

 

The proof pressue is the same for lead or steel.

The advice with chokes remains the same regardless of the gun being super proofed in holy water or not, ie don't use anything tighter than half and preferably a quarter.

Cip can say what it likes as can Sammie, their advice differs it seems and the yanks throw steel out of unproofed guns all day long that only bear at most the Italian superior proof marks.

Every gun smith I have asked, and I have asked a few have all said my 390 will take 3 inch HP shells all day and does do over the pond. Their advice was to use nothing tighter than half choke.

 

That's my view, each to their own, I wouldnt throw the carts through an old gun that had the proof marks but was worn through use, or a fixed choke higher than half.

Each to their own.

 

 

But words to this effect are stamped on every box of HP Steel cartridges sold in the UK.

 

3. High Performance 12 bore steel shot cartridges.

 

These cartridges, whether 12/70 or 12/73 and longer (i.e. 12 bore cartridges for 70 mm (2 3/4in) or 73 mm chambers), can only be fired from 12 bore guns specially designed to fire steel shot ammunition and bearing the Steel Shot proof mark (this includes the words -Steel Shot and a Fleur de Lys )

 

 

It doesn’t say on the box unless the owner’s manual implies it’s ok.

The Benelli owner’s manual does not take precedence over CIP proof regulations.

Sell a gun that does not bear any CIP proof marks in the UK and see where it gets you, sell a gun without an owner’s manual, no problem.

Also Benelli could quite easily sell the gun with Fleur de Lys proof mark on it so why put in the manual you cannot use HP steel.

I think that Benelli can reasonably assume that because every box of HP steel sold in a CIP country has that warning on they don’t have to hammer the point home that you should not use HP steel in a gun not bearing the Fleur de Lys.

 

The proof pressure is not the same for lead and HP steel under CIP, read AlistairB’s post above, read my posts and link earlier on, the pressure the gun is subjected to during proofing is not the same.

 

 

You can go to plenty of places in the world and buy an unproofed gun and put what you like through it, the UK is not one of those places, we have to listen to what the CIP say, it’s kind of the law and you get in trouble if you don’t.

 

If you want to ignore the regulations no problem, its your call, but dont try to imply Benelli agree with you.

Edited December 5, 2013 by timps

[GingerCat]

Timps, lets not get out knickers in a twist.

Kinda the law is not the law is it.

Benelli can't sell gun saying its suitable for steel with 3.5 carts if it's not. Cip say all carts over 2 3/4 are hp steel, hence all carts from 2 3/4 up to 3.5 in steel are hpbif loaded with steel.

If the could not fire them it would stipulate not to.

Just like coffee from McDonald's has a warning that it's hot, as well as the apple pie.

The trade description act would see goods being sold that do not match the description as not being fit for purpose, it would be no different if a car manufacturer implied it's petrol engine could use diesel when it can't.

thats not to mention their reputation amongst wildfowlers, which I understand is very good.

The cart manufacturers will say whatever cip says as they are in a cip county and no doubt have to print it on their boxes, if they were in the US they would say whatever sammi says.

The fact remains that certain guns whilst not being stamped with some magical mark that increases the tensil strength of steel just by it's mear presence, are quite suitible for steel shot. As demonstrated by various nations who use said guns with no I'll effects.

I agree it's best to have a proof mark, just like it's best to have open chokes, and a nice warm coat in the winter.

But ultimately I and I'm sure a lot of others have guns that can't shoot steel shot quite perfectly but are not stamped.

I understand that steel is harder than lead and does not compress, this Will lead to an increase in pressure in the first few inches of the barrel and with a tight choke a bulge or burst near the end of the barrel, however pressure is pressure, 1 ton of pressure exerted by steel is just the same as one ton of pressure exerted by feathers, the choke issue is well know and universal wether hp or standard.

I have little more to say, if an expert in ballastics who has seen the factual evidence of burst barrels by guns stamped with superior Italian proof marks can shed some light on it that would be great, until then j will continue to fire hp loads through my gun.

[Alfred]

My Zoli barrels say KG 1490, Magnum proof, etc, which as far as I know is over the amount needed for a FDL.

But it has no FDL mark.

 

I think it is within the specification required by FDL but was manufactured and proofed before the FDL was common.

I'm still not happy about putting steel through it though.

[GingerCat]

That might be the barrel weight Alfred, I'm not familiar with that make and it's worth checking.

That's a high proof if correct.

In fact I'm certain it's the barrel weight, check the marks and see, the pics are on the net and your gun might be sub par in comparison to higher proof.

Edited December 6, 2013 by GingerCat

[timps]

Timps, lets not get out knickers in a twist.

Kinda the law is not the law is it.

Benelli can't sell gun saying its suitable for steel with 3.5 carts if it's not. Cip say all carts over 2 3/4 are hp steel, hence all carts from 2 3/4 up to 3.5 in steel are hpbif loaded with steel.

If the could not fire them it would stipulate not to.

Just like coffee from McDonald's has a warning that it's hot, as well as the apple pie.

The trade description act would see goods being sold that do not match the description as not being fit for purpose, it would be no different if a car manufacturer implied it's petrol engine could use diesel when it can't.

thats not to mention their reputation amongst wildfowlers, which I understand is very good.

The cart manufacturers will say whatever cip says as they are in a cip county and no doubt have to print it on their boxes, if they were in the US they would say whatever sammi says.

The fact remains that certain guns whilst not being stamped with some magical mark that increases the tensil strength of steel just by it's mear presence, are quite suitible for steel shot. As demonstrated by various nations who use said guns with no I'll effects.

I agree it's best to have a proof mark, just like it's best to have open chokes, and a nice warm coat in the winter.

But ultimately I and I'm sure a lot of others have guns that can't shoot steel shot quite perfectly but are not stamped.

I understand that steel is harder than lead and does not compress, this Will lead to an increase in pressure in the first few inches of the barrel and with a tight choke a bulge or burst near the end of the barrel, however pressure is pressure, 1 ton of pressure exerted by steel is just the same as one ton of pressure exerted by feathers, the choke issue is well know and universal wether hp or standard.

I have little more to say, if an expert in ballastics who has seen the factual evidence of burst barrels by guns stamped with superior Italian proof marks can shed some light on it that would be great, until then j will continue to fire hp loads through my gun.

Not getting my knickers in a twist, if it comes across like that then I don’t mean to be but I am going round in circles with this.

 

 

 

So let me rephrase kind of the law to it is the law as I was being a bit glib.

 

 

 

Benelli cannot sell a gun in the UK against CIP proof regulations, that is the law. They cannot say yes it is ok to shoot HP steel without the proof mark. If they do then they are now selling a gun in the UK out of proof. That is against the law plain and simple and a lot worse than any potential trade descriptions dispute.

 

 

If they want to claim it can shoot HP Steel it MUST have the proof mark, believe me that is not open for debate it’s the law of the land. What they do in non CIP member countries is up to that country's lawmakers. Benelli have no say in the matter in the UK or other CIP countries, they submit a gun for proof at CIP proof house and the proof house tell them what it can shoot. If they claim anything other than that then they are breaking the law.

 

 

The proof mark does not magically increase strength but it does assure the user that it is not going to blow up in his or her face first time out with that load. Even the CIP say just because it doesn't have a proof mark that the gun would not necessarily be damaged but that the risk of it being so is increased.

 

 

I am sure the CIP have many ballistic experts and have studied and tested this before coming up with the proof test. They say and I quote AlistarB’s post “(which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel)” so the proof test is 30% greater than the equivalent lead test. All I keep saying is the steel proof test is different to the equivalent lead test, how you use that information is up to you, if you wish to dispute it though that take it up CIP but I am going to believe them.

 

 

 

I only started on this thread to inform people that The PSF** 1370 proof is not the same as the Fleur-de-Lys so be warned and make your own mind up whether to take the risk or not. Not that you shouldn’t do it.

 

 

 

I keep saying it is up to you if you want to shoot HP steel, do I think your gun will explode, as I have said on every thread no I don’t but there is a greater risk of damage, not that the world is going to end if you do.

 

 

 

But on this current issue, Benelli are not claiming it is ok to use HP steel without the proof mark unless they want to be selling out of proof guns in CIP member states. Considering Italy is a member state I don’t think they are that stupid as it’s against the law in that country as well.

Edited December 6, 2013 by timps

[GingerCat]

30% increase on pressure is standard for a proof load, 3 are used as per the test, this is for lead and steel. Regardless.

The test has to have a margin of safety to make it worthwhile and it's not unique to steel.

 

Re the proof marks, I refer u to the earlier post that stars as a lift from the Manuel

 

"Choice of ammunition

SuperNova can use cartridges with a 70 mm (2 3/4), 76 mm(3) or 89 mm (3 1/2) case, armed with either lead or steel shot. Chokes marked * (full) and ** (Imp. modified) are not recommended for use with steel shot.

 

As well all know being a cip country, all shot over 2 3/4 inch in steel is hp. The only issue is the choke.

It's not me saying it, it's written by the manufacturer.

[timps]

That’s not what it says, read AlistarB’s post above, the 30% increase is over the equivalent PSF** 1370 proof load not a standard load.

 

So a gun pressure tested to Fleur-de-Lys will be subjected to a 30% increase in pressure over a gun subjected to a PSF** 1370 test. So yes it is unique to steel proof.

 

 

 

In summary a Benelli proofed to Fleur-de-Lys will be subjected to 30% more pressure than a Benelli tested to PSF** 1370. Whether that makes any meaningful difference to safety or not is up for debate, the fact that difference exists is not.

 

 

 

How does referring me to the manual prove your point?

 

 

 

We are a CIP member state and as such all guns sold here MUST be proofed at a CIP proof house to their standards by UK LAW. If that proof house says the gun is not proofed to shoot HP steel then that is the end of it, it is then irrelevant what the manufacturer claims in any literature. The CIP clearly state that if a gun does not have the Fleur-de-Lys then it is not proofed to shoot HP steel and as such cannot be sold in this country claiming that it can by law.

 

 

 

So using your analogy, We all know being a CIP country and that you cannot shoot HP steel through a gun unless it has the proof mark.

 

 

 

You cannot quote one part of the CIP HP steel shot regs to try and justify ignoring another part, you either except them all in their entirety or throw them all out the window. If Benelli know that all shot over 2 3/4 inch in steel is hp then they also know that to shoot it you need the Fleur-de-Lys by law.

 

 

 

Ring GMK or email Benelli tomorrow and ask them if it is ok to shoot HP steel through one of their guns not bearing the Fleur-de-Lys because what you think is written in the manual takes precedence over CIP proof regulations.

 

 

 

Seeing as they HAVE to abide by CIP regulations whether they agree with them or not in this country I already know the answer.

 

[GingerCat]

Look, all proof is 30% above the max load, so any shot proved to 1370 bar is tested at 30% higher for the margin.

So no it's not just for steel.

 

Re the cip guidlines, Im quoting a post from the Manuel above. Provided it's correct of course.

So I'm not ignoreing any part of the regs to suit another.

Neither am I going to call anyone in the morning to find out, I'll go with what the gunsmiths say along with what the proof marks on my gun says and the thousands of yanks that shoot steel hp carts through exactly the same gun day in and say out.

 

Also im pretty sure a gun company knows that all carts over 2 3/4 in steel is hp. And if they say it's suitable then it's suitable. They made it and it appears it's in the user guide to their firearm.

The problem is choke and I don't know if anyone yet that reccomends anything more than half as a max.

[timps]

Look, all proof is 30% above the max load, so any shot proved to 1370 bar is tested at 30% higher for the margin.

So no it's not just for steel.

 

 

Ok let me see if I can explain it to you with simple maths using your assumption that guns are all proofed at 30% above the max load.

PSF** is proofed 1370 service pressure and you state that is 30% greater than a standard load meaning you can shoot 959 in your eyes.

Fleur de lis is proofed 30% greater than 1370 which is 1781 service pressure again using your assumption of a 30% figure meaning you can shoot 1370.

So yes it is unique to steel unless Benelli decide to proof lead loads at 1781 service pressure.

Re the cip guidlines, Im quoting a post from the Manuel above. Provided it's correct of course.

So I'm not ignoreing any part of the regs to suit another.

 

Yes you quote from a manual not CIP regulations and it’s your interpretation that is incorrect.

You are trying to assume they automatically include HP steel even thought they don’t state it in the manual because of the inability to get standard steel in all sizes due to CIP regulations. But then conveniently ignore the CIP regulations that say you MUST have the fleur de lis to shoot HP steel.

Neither am I going to call anyone in the morning to find out, I'll go with what the gunsmiths say along with what the proof marks on my gun says and the thousands of yanks that shoot steel hp carts through exactly the same gun day in and say out.

 

 

Not a problem that is your choice, as I have said all along, but don’t put words in Benelli’s mouth without checking with them first is all I am saying.

The Yanks do not shoot CIP HP Steel, they shoot steel to SAAMI regulations.

This is a quote from an Australian government website outing the two differences as Australia doesn’t have a proof house.

“Conclusion

To summarise, there is a significant difference in the approach taken by SAAMI and CIP in respect to steel shot performance and firearm proofing methods. SAAMI sets limits based on chamber pressure of the cartridge, independent of the type of shot charge being fired.

CIP has established two different pressure levels for steel shot. The first, Standard Steel Shot, is lower in maximum pressure than all SAAMI products, including lead shot. The second, called High Performance Steel Shot, actually has service pressure far in excess of SAAMI 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch service loads."

So CIP High Performance Steel Shot has a higher service pressure than the yanks according to that. My whole point was don’t compare apples and oranges, they have different regulations, different ammo. So don’t use a proof mark from one to say you can automatically shoot ammo from another.

Also im pretty sure a gun company knows that all carts over 2 3/4 in steel is hp. And if they say it's suitable then it's suitable. They made it and it appears it's in the user guide to their firearm.

 

Not a mention of HP steel in the manual at all, that’s just your assumption.

No they are they are not in a legal position to say its suitable to shoot HP steel only a CIP proof house can say that and they insist it has to have a fleur de lis, if Benelli makes a gun it has to be sent to the proof house before it can be sold in this country.

They say it is suitable to shoot steel not HP steel, you just assume they mean that due to the lack of steel carts in the longer length in this country.

Like I say its your choice, just pointing out that your gun has not been proofed to the same standard required for HP steel shot, whether that bothers you or not is irrelevant to me.

Edited December 6, 2013 by timps

[timps]

Edit: to add one further thought ,if you take the Australian government at their word

Conclusion

To summarise, there is a significant difference in the approach taken by SAAMI and CIP in respect to steel shot performance and firearm proofing methods. SAAMI sets limits based on chamber pressure of the cartridge, independent of the type of shot charge being fired.

CIP has established two different pressure levels for steel shot. The first, Standard Steel Shot, is lower in maximum pressure than all SAAMI products, including lead shot. The second, called High Performance Steel Shot, actually has service pressure far in excess of SAAMI 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch service loads.

 

 

Then your Benelli manual says it is ok to shoot 3” Sammi steel as this has a lower service pressure than CIP HP Steel and passed their proofing requirements.

So yes your gun is proofed to shoot Sammi 3” steel loads and therefore the manual is not in breach of The trade description act as you first thought but good luck in finding a stockist over here.

But it is still not proofed to shoot the higher service pressure CIP HP Steel as I have said.

Edited December 6, 2013 by timps

[PhilR]

Just to muddy the waters slightly. I'm thinking of converting my 1991 Perazzi MX8 trap gun to use for game/duck shooting and have the intention of opening the chokes up to about 15 thou to ensure I stay under the recommended 1/2 choke for steel shot. It has the PSF** proof mark and I emailed Mauro Perazzi to ask him what the test pressure was when it was proofed with the thought of using HP steel and this is the response I received from him. I assume the Gilium is the Fleur de Lys, as I can't find a translation for it. .

 

"At that time the proof house test was 1.200 Bar. I am sorry to inform you that your barrels cannot be used for steel shot. At the moment, we produce barrels with interchangeable chokes and tested with steel shot, 1.320 bar and the identification mark is a Gilium under the monobloc."

 

I don't know when the Italian Proof House changed the test pressure, but don't on the basis that the barrels are stamped PSF** assume they achieve current pressure.

Edited December 6, 2013 by PhilR

[GingerCat]

Whatever

[Alfred]

That might be the barrel weight Alfred, I'm not familiar with that make and it's worth checking.

That's a high proof if correct.

In fact I'm certain it's the barrel weight, check the marks and see, the pics are on the net and your gun might be sub par in comparison to higher proof.

 

1490kg barrel weight ?

Crikey, the Iraqi supergun didn't weigh that much

 

kg/cm2 is a unit of pressure, not often used in my experience, but then I'm an electrical engineer not mechanical.

 

1490 kg/cm2 = (roughly) 1460 bar.

So on that basis along with the magnum proof stamps I'd say its proofed to a high standard....but its a 2005 gun, so I don't *think* the FDL was being used widely then.

I'm not a metallurgist either so I don't know what the implications of pushing steel shot down a barrel are compared with lead...or how the forces acting on the interior change based on the deformity of different metals. So I don't think its as simple as "pressure is pressure".

 

I love this particular shotgun, so I don't fancy doing anything that might knacker it up, so instead of steel shot @ £6 I use Tungsten Matrix @ £25.

In a gun that costs a couple of grand its worth paying a few bob extra.

I'm not a wildfowler and its only a couple of times a year that I go after duck and its too light to put huge loads down it for goose, I don't go daft and only shoot for the pot, so a couple of box's of TM (32g) might last me a season.

[PhilR]

Alfred, in my experience of Italian shotguns, Perazzi, Beretta and Gamba, they have the barrel weight stamped on them and I think you'll find that it's actually 1.490kg not 1490kg. The proof pressure figure isn't stamped on them see my post above re one of my Perazzi's and pressure.

[fendrover90]

I've put my homeloaded high speed steel bb loads through my Urika with no problems No scoring of the barrel no choke freeze great patterns

[GingerCat]

Re the barrel weight, I would have thought 1.49 kg.

[timps]

Whatever

Now who is getting their knickers in a twist.

 

If you don't believe me then fair enough, but the information is out there on the net to check for yourself.

I am genuinely not bothered what each shooter decides to do, all I am bothered about is people are not given misinformation and think that it is fact.

Edited December 6, 2013 by timps

[GingerCat]

Not getting them in a twist, just not bothered, it's been entertaining as well as useful, particularly on your part as you have done some research that I appreciate, however, each to their own.

From reading the depi website even it says the cip pressure for 3.5 inxh is lower than what sammi would have set although sammi have lower tests for anything up to 3 inch but are (reading between the lines) somewhat more commonsense about it.

An interesting debate but to be fair I've lost interest.

Should have one proof for each chamber size, it can either shoot it or not. Maybe an exception for older guns but Damascus barrels.