High Performance cartridges

[fo5ter]

Just trying to wrap my head around steel shot. The manual for my Beretta Outlander says not to use 'high performance' shot and goes on to say no larger than 3.5mm ( bigger than no3)

 

For a 3" gun does such a thing even exist if they are beyond the CIP steel proof conditions?

would such cartridges usually be 3 1/2 inch anyway making the warning in the manual pointless as the gun doesn't even come in 3 1/2"

 

Not that I'm even in the market for such cartridges but just trying to wrap my head around it

[poontang]

Most guns will be ok using standard steel shells (shot size 4 and smaller), to use anything bigger the gun would need to be proofed to High Performance standard.

 

Your Beretta is not proofed for HP steel loads, hence their warning.

 

Plenty of 3" steel #3's on the market, but if you stick to 4's or smaller sizes you'll be fine.

[IEH]

I thought the Outlander was steel proofed and that seems to be supported by this extract from GMK's website

 

The A300 Outlander is the best value Beretta Semi-Automatic available at under £1,000. This attractively styled semi auto is made using genuine Beretta parts throughout and manufactured in Italy. This gun is a great all rounder with superior steel proofed multi choke barrels included at no extra cost.

 

Might be worth checking with GMK?

[Guest stevo]

I have just looked at my A300 manual and it clearly states , that its proofed to 1320 bar and is suitable for normal and HP steel shot . also does NOT say anything about shot sizes .

Edited December 2, 2013 by stevo

[poontang]

The manual for my Beretta Outlander says not to use 'high performance' shot and goes on to say no larger than 3.5mm ( bigger than no3)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have just looked at my A300 manual and it clearly states , that its proofed to 1320 bar and is suitable for normal and HP steel shot . also does NOT say anything about shot sizes .

 

Confusing eh?

 

Should have bought an Escort!!!

[Guest stevo]

 

 

 

Confusing eh?

 

Should have bought an Escort!!!

I have one of them too !!

 

that's the point , its not confusing at all haha , the info is all in the manual , I can put any steel through the A300 as long as its 3" or under .

Edited December 2, 2013 by stevo

[poontang]

I have one of them too !!

 

that's the point , its not confusing at all haha , the info is all in the manual , I can put any steel through the A300 as long as its 3" or under .

 

Ah, but therein lies the problem. The OP's manual, for the same gun, says NOT to use HP steel...so if I was in the market for an 'outlander' I'd be getting conflicting information from owners....confusing. :(

[Guest stevo]

haha not really , mines is 6 weeks old so its fair to say its the current model , it has the Fleur De Lys stamped on barrel , CIP mark stamped on barrel , the words " STEEL PROOFED" stamped on barrel and has tested to 1320 BAR stamped on barrel , and the manual confirms all of the above ,

 

so im not sure where the OP got his info from ? or maybe he mis read it ? who knows

Edited December 2, 2013 by stevo

[GingerCat]

Strange this steel proof business, my 390 is proofed to a similar pressure, the chokes are marked steel proof and the gun smith says it will take the hp carts all day as the yanks prove yet cip say no.

Half tempted to send it for proofing just to settle the nay sayers but can't be bothered, it's my fingers.

Empires? Who knows.

[Guest stevo]

just have a look at your barrel , if it has not got a certain proof mark then you cant use that load , it does not matter what you have read , or someone has told you ,

You can ONLY use what you are in proof for , and the only way to know ,is to look at what is on your Chamber/barrel .

[GingerCat]

Depends entirely on the proof marks, my understanding is the Italian superior proof mark meets Sammie standards of 14000 psi and therefore suitable for hp steel although not stamped for it as it wasn't required at the time as the fleur didn't exist, hence I will listen to my gunsmith and not the net.

On this point how much is it to proof test a gun?

[beeredup]

always thought if its marked with a Fleur de lyse its proofed for high performance steel?

[Guest stevo]

always thought if its marked with a Fleur de lyse its proofed for high performance steel?

yep same here , im far from an expert on this matter , that's why I have always just gone with what marks are on chamber / barrel ,

I can remember about 10 yrs. ago a mate of mine was in the same boat , his RFD said it would be fine ( cant remember what it was for ) but anyway he took the RFDs advice , which I must say it was good advice , but for a long while he saying that he just didn't trust it , which is fare enough , after all he's the one behind the trigger .

cut a rather boring story short , he sent it off for reproofing , I don't remember how much for sure , but seem to think it was somewhere around the £110.00 mark . this could be well out nowadays . but I spose its not a lot for piece of mind .

Edited December 4, 2013 by stevo

[Guest cookoff013]

some "non-english" guns are proofed to the country of origing standards.

take benellis they have the [*PSF*] and are fine for HP steel.

 

the HP criteria is for any shell length, that either exceeds normal service pressure (12ga-740 bar) and or the maximum steel shotsize.

 

i personally think that the HP shells that are classified as maximum average pressure of 1050bar or less is yust a way of having the pressure sneak over the 740 bar. it wouldnt suprise me if the pressues are only 800bar.

not alot higher, but way enough to make THE difference.

[timps]

some "non-english" guns are proofed to the country of origing standards.

take benellis they have the [*PSF*] and are fine for HP steel.

 

the HP criteria is for any shell length, that either exceeds normal service pressure (12ga-740 bar) and or the maximum steel shotsize.

 

i personally think that the HP shells that are classified as maximum average pressure of 1050bar or less is yust a way of having the pressure sneak over the 740 bar. it wouldnt suprise me if the pressues are only 800bar.

not alot higher, but way enough to make THE difference.

 

Benellis are Italian so their proof house comes under CIP regulations which means they would have the Fleur de Lys if proofed for HP Steel. *PSF* is the Italian proof mark for shotguns with chambers longer than 70mm (Voluntary superior smokeless powder proof), if I recall correctly the proof pressure is the same as HP steel but it is still only proofed to shoot lead at this pressure.

 

Would this cause an issue, official line : because steel shot is harder than lead it could damage the bore at this pressure, unofficial line : nope been shooting it for ages no problems.

 

But remember the simple fact is without the Fleur de Lys your gun has not been tested to shoot HP steel so if it does go tits up you have no comeback.

[Guest cookoff013]

 

Benellis are Italian so their proof house comes under CIP regulations which means they would have the Fleur de Lys if proofed for HP Steel. *PSF* is the Italian proof mark for shotguns with chambers longer than 70mm (Voluntary superior smokeless powder proof), if I recall correctly the proof pressure is the same as HP steel but it is still only proofed to shoot lead at this pressure.

 

Would this cause an issue, official line : because steel shot is harder than lead it could damage the bore at this pressure, unofficial line : nope been shooting it for ages no problems.

 

But remember the simple fact is without the Fleur de Lys your gun has not been tested to shoot HP steel so if it does go tits up you have no comeback.

 

its proofed to 1370 bar or so. its fine from that point of view.

HP cartridge is a HP cartridge wheather its lead or steel. the cip have both tiers of proof with both shot materials.

 

the CIP working pressure for cartridges must be under 1050bar average over a shotstring with no single reading exceeding 1200Bar....

 

the 3.5" supernova is proofed enough !

[timps]

 

its proofed to 1370 bar or so. its fine from that point of view.

HP cartridge is a HP cartridge wheather its lead or steel. the cip have both tiers of proof with both shot materials.

 

the CIP working pressure for cartridges must be under 1050bar average over a shotstring with no single reading exceeding 1200Bar....

 

the 3.5" supernova is proofed enough !

 

Like I stated previously I know the proof pressures are the same, but that’s not the issue the CIP have with it.

 

The OFFICIAL line from the CIP proof house is because steal shot is harder than lead it does not compress as easily. Based on this phenomenon they take the view shoving the harder material down the bore at the same stated pressure as lead can result in a higher pressure build up, damage to the bore, bulging and other problems compared to lead.

 

The harder shot is the difference between the HP carts not the stated pressure.

Whether you choose to believe this or not is irrelevant but it is the official CIP stance, people have asked the proof house and that is the reply they have got.

 

The cynical amongst us might take the view it’s just a money making ploy by the proof houses to charge for an extra test. But you have to accept the difference between the 2 two types of shot will cause a difference, whether that difference will be enough to cause any damage is the question.

 

The fact is the *PSF* mark does NOT guarantee you for HP steel. To illustrate my point you could have a fixed choke gun choked at full / full proofed to the *PSF* standard which might not bode so well with HP steel once it hits the choke taper. This is why Beretta say standard steel shot is not recommended on fixed choke guns unless proofed accordingly but it’s ok on multi choke guns. It’s not so much the pressure but the compression of the shot and its knock on effect that is the issue.

 

So I stand by my statement you either believe a bloke off the internet that says it’s fine and to be fair uses it or the CIP who say don’t use it unless you have the Fleur de Lys.

 

If you choose to believe the bloke off the internet then rest assure you are the first person to shoot HP steel through that gun and let’s hope he is right!!

[Guest cookoff013]

 

Like I stated previously I know the proof pressures are the same, but that’s not the issue the CIP have with it.

 

The OFFICIAL line from the CIP proof house is because steal shot is harder than lead it does not compress as easily. Based on this phenomenon they take the view shoving the harder material down the bore at the same stated pressure as lead can result in a higher pressure build up, damage to the bore, bulging and other problems compared to lead.

 

The harder shot is the difference between the HP carts not the stated pressure.

Whether you choose to believe this or not is irrelevant but it is the official CIP stance, people have asked the proof house and that is the reply they have got.

 

The cynical amongst us might take the view it’s just a money making ploy by the proof houses to charge for an extra test. But you have to accept the difference between the 2 two types of shot will cause a difference, whether that difference will be enough to cause any damage is the question.

 

The fact is the *PSF* mark does NOT guarantee you for HP steel. To illustrate my point you could have a fixed choke gun choked at full / full proofed to the *PSF* standard which might not bode so well with HP steel once it hits the choke taper. This is why Beretta say standard steel shot is not recommended on fixed choke guns unless proofed accordingly but it’s ok on multi choke guns. It’s not so much the pressure but the compression of the shot and its knock on effect that is the issue.

 

So I stand by my statement you either believe a bloke off the internet that says it’s fine and to be fair uses it or the CIP who say don’t use it unless you have the Fleur de Lys.

 

If you choose to believe the bloke off the internet then rest assure you are the first person to shoot HP steel through that gun and let’s hope he is right!!

 

the harder shot/ different shot material is not the difference. both shot materials have a 2 tier "maximum average pressure". you can ger HP cartridges in lead. as long as it states it on the side of the shell.

 

you can also have standard steel shells that are not HP. but have a working pressure of less than or equil to 740bar (12ga).

 

the official line with the cip pressure standards does not recognise steel shot as an independent material. both steel and lead can be applied to both pressure tiers. standard and HP.

even lead cartridges can be hot pressure, i`ve made them and proofed them. one i even had proofed using HP criteria.

 

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=1&cartridge_type_id=7 -now that is straight from the horses mouth.

 

the *PSF* is not a guarentee of HP steel, but the fact its 3.5" is, as its valid for the american 3.5" shells which are HP. as with chokes, thats has very little to do with HP standards, unless you talk about shotsize. inwhich we are not.

[Guest cookoff013]

edit...

 

apart from the steel / speed limitations.

[timps]

 

the harder shot/ different shot material is not the difference. both shot materials have a 2 tier "maximum average pressure". you can ger HP cartridges in lead. as long as it states it on the side of the shell.

 

you can also have standard steel shells that are not HP. but have a working pressure of less than or equil to 740bar (12ga).

 

the official line with the cip pressure standards does not recognise steel shot as an independent material. both steel and lead can be applied to both pressure tiers. standard and HP.

even lead cartridges can be hot pressure, i`ve made them and proofed them. one i even had proofed using HP criteria.

 

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=1&cartridge_type_id=7 -now that is straight from the horses mouth.

 

the *PSF* is not a guarentee of HP steel, but the fact its 3.5" is, as its valid for the american 3.5" shells which are HP. as with chokes, thats has very little to do with HP standards, unless you talk about shotsize. inwhich we are not.

Obviously not what this guy was told.

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/39160-warning-to-non-tox-users/

 

and not what I have read in the past.

 

Are you are telling me that there is absolutely no difference between pushing a harder material down a tube that tapers compared to a softer one ?

 

You keep mentioning cartridge pressures but I am not talking about the cartridges or the CIP regs concerning them. I am talking about what the gun is tested to withstand, so your link has no bearing on what I am saying. If CIP does not differentiate for HP steel when proofing a gun then I am at a total loss as to why the fleur de llys and ‘steel shot’ are stamped on the barrels as that seems to differentiate it to me.

 

You are taking the whole proof testing out of context and just fixating on cartridge pressure. The gun is proofed to withstand the worst case scenario with a safety margin and not just simple pressure testing. The cartridges are just proofed to a level well below this.

 

So the working pressures can be the same for both lead and steel HP carts but they don’t behave the same when shot down the barrel and the CIP are well aware of this. Steel shot can damage a gun that the equivalent lead doesn’t, this might not be strictly a pressure related failure but maybe the failure of the steel to compress under this pressure causing a bulge. Steel does not compress like lead, simple fact. This is part of the GUN proof process & hence why only guns tested with steel get the proof mark.

 

And the official line is that HP steel shot can only be shot through a gun that has the fleur de llys and ‘steel shot’ stamped on the barrels.

 

If you don’t believe me ring up the Italian proof house and ask if it’s ok to shoot HP steel through a gun with just *PSF* on it, if you get it in writing that I am wrong I will gladly offer you an apology .

 

The point about the chokes was a fixed choke gun could pass the *PFS* proof but fail the fleur de llys. You have to proof a fixed choke gun with the chokes in place so yes they are part of the HP steel proof of a gun. If I was to take your stance of just looking at cartridge pressure and nothing else then it’s ok for me to shoot HP steel through it.

I and the CIP take a different view.

Edited December 4, 2013 by timps

[IEH]

BUT as I posted in the steel shot thread

 

"I shoot a Benelli Supernova which is not stamped with the fleur de lys ( I think this may be something to do with the proof houses' charging policies) but the manufacturer's manual confirms that 'All Benelli shotguns are subjected to a 1370 bar burst test at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Valtrompia (Brescia)', and are therefore safe with HP steel."

[timps]

BUT as I posted in the steel shot thread

 

"I shoot a Benelli Supernova which is not stamped with the fleur de lys ( I think this may be something to do with the proof houses' charging policies) but the manufacturer's manual confirms that 'All Benelli shotguns are subjected to a 1370 bar burst test at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Valtrompia (Brescia)', and are therefore safe with HP steel."

Yes we all agree that it is proofed to 1370 but nowhere in the manual does it say that it is safe with HP steel.

 

It says:-

 

"Choice of ammunition

SuperNova can use cartridges with a 70 mm (2 3/4), 76 mm(3) or 89 mm (3 1/2) case, armed with either lead or steel shot. Chokes marked * (full) and ** (Imp. modified) are not recommended for use with steel shot.

 

CAUTION:never use cartridges with a case longer than the chamber. Non-compliance to this rule would have serious consequences for both the shotgun and the shooter.

 

All Benelli shotguns are subjected to a 1370 bar burst test at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Valtrompia (Brescia)"

 

No mention of HP steel at all, if you want to make the inference from the above you can then that is your call but Benelli are not making it for you. They Just say you can shoot standard steel shot, the case lengths it will take and it is proofed to 1370 bar.

 

It also states in the manual "Only use factory-loaded, new ammunition manufactured to industry specifications: CIP(Europe and elsewhere), SAAMI® (U.S.A)"

 

Look on a CIP HP steel box and tell me what it says.

 

According to CIP:- Markings to be borne on the basic packaging, in addition to normal safety warnings:

 

- 'Only for use in weapons designed to fire steel shot cartridges and bearing the Steel Shot proof mark'

- 'Where the steel shot diameter exceeds 4 mm, it is only to be fired from weapons bearing the Steel Shot proof mark and having barrels fitted with a choke less than 0.5 mm'

'Beware of ricochets: avoid firing at rigid and hard surfaces'.

 

So using HP steel ammunition to CIP specifications means it needs the steel shot proof mark, if it doesn't have it you are not using the ammunition to the specifications laid out.

 

Your Benelli manual says don't do that so you are kind of stuck if you just want to follow the manual.

 

It's your call in life what you do, but don't tell others that Benelli and CIP say it's ok, because they don't.

 

Do I think your gun is going to explode, no I don't, but it has not been proofed to shoot HP steel shot either so please don't try and convince people it has.

Edited December 5, 2013 by timps

[Big Mat]

Go on then, enlighten me.

 

What exactley does the proof house test for a steel shot proof? Because a 1370 bar proof is a 1370 bar proof, no matter what cartridges you use.

[Guest cookoff013]

as i have said before, the cip have 2 tier proffing system.

 

of corse there is a big difference in pushing a steel load and lead load down the barrel. but both the pressures are mesured in the same 1" or metric 25/30mm into the chamber.

 

from a data pint of view, the cartridge either conforms to cip or does not. the data does not take into account steel or lead. thats in the load declaration.

 

why are you fixated on the lack of compression and or hardness of steel shot? thats why we have slow powder to deal with that.

 

the 3.5" benelli is designed to be run upto 14000psi every shot. thats the maximun for saami 3.5" shells.

[timps]

Go on then, enlighten me.

 

What exactley does the proof house test for a steel shot proof? Because a 1370 bar proof is a 1370 bar proof, no matter what cartridges you use.

 

I have discussed this in my previous posts.

Edited December 5, 2013 by timps