fieldwanderer Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Can someone explain the law regarding obsolete calibers please? For someone with no licenses, can they buy (for example) a garden gun? And what happens about ammunition? Can they then go to a gunshop and somehow get ammunition or is it all reloading? And, if they were to make ammunition, would that necessitate a license? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAsh Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 A Garden gun still has cartridges available to buy so not obsolete You would need at least a shotgun certificate to buy primers and powder If you had in your posesion a active obsolete gun and ammo you would face about 5 years in jail if no licence was held Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manton Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Hello Fieldwanderer A list of obsolete calibres is available in most of the firearms guidance documents, and I do not think 9mm is one of them. Furthermore a condition of holding such a gun is that no ammunition may be held. To be caught in possession of ammunition could lead to a charge of holding an illegal firearm as the Police would see it as proof that the weapon was not held as an antique or curiosity only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Hello Fieldwanderer A list of obsolete calibres is available in most of the firearms guidance documents, and I do not think 9mm is one of them. Furthermore a condition of holding such a gun is that no ammunition may be held. To be caught in possession of ammunition could lead to a charge of holding an illegal firearm as the Police would see it as proof that the weapon was not held as an antique or curiosity only. This is correct I believe. 9mm rimfire is classed as obsolete, but I'm not sure about such a cartridge loaded with shot as they are still comertically produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldwanderer Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 That's all I needed to know really, I saw the little pistol in the sales bit the other day and it set me wondering. So, in effect, you can have such a "gun" for display or whatever but if you had some way of aquiring ammunition for it, you would need a license for whatever it was before you could do so legally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Obsolete calibre guns generally go for a fortune. You have to wonder why. Me I wouldn't like to speculate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Ok to own an obsolete calibre for display or collectors reasons, but add ammo from any source and you are risking six years of not daring to drop the soap. It's a shame, these old guns are crying out to be used, lots of lovely rook rifles out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cottonseed Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Ok to own an obsolete calibre for display or collectors reasons, but add ammo from any source and you are risking six years of not daring to drop the soap. It's a shame, these old guns are crying out to be used, lots of lovely rook rifles out there. You can shoot an obsolete calibre rook rifle and make the ammunition if you have a good reason for it and have it entered on an FAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Sure you can, but the OP was talking about off ticket scenarios. I should have said, you can own and shoot anything with the appropriate paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cottonseed Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Reading too quickly. My apologies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 One of the things I have always been pleasantly amazed about is how understanding they are about obsolete calibres. When you consider how anal they get about other aspects of firearms law it is a breath of fresh air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manton Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 Vince Green One of the things I have always been pleasantly amazed about is how understanding they are about obsolete calibres. When you consider how anal they get about other aspects of firearms law it is a breath of fresh air. I agree that in most cases this is correct especially where muzzle loaders and very odd types of guns are involved but operation trident and Mick Shepherd shows that this is not always the case and emphasis the need to proceed carefully. For more information see the introduction on the Micks Guns website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Can someone explain the law regarding obsolete calibers please? For someone with no licenses, can they buy (for example) a garden gun? And what happens about ammunition? Can they then go to a gunshop and somehow get ammunition or is it all reloading? And, if they were to make ammunition, would that necessitate a license? There is nothing in law relating to 'obsolete' calibres, per-se. Section 58(2) of the 1968 Act creates an exemption from the need for a firearm or shotgun certificate or authority under section 5 in respect of an antique firearm which is possessed or transferred as a curiosity or ornament. In 1992 the Firearms Consultative Committee (now disbanded) gave recomendations as to how the situation relating to antiques could be redrafted from it's current form and how the word 'antique' should be defined. They originally came up with the idea of antiques only being those old guns which were chambered for certain rounds considered 'obsolete'. Nothing that the FCC said amounts to a statement as to actual state of the law and nor did the FCC have any power to make the law or to interpret it for the courts. The FCC was a body set up to advise government as to how the law could or should be changed and nothing more. The state of the law is very straight forward. You can buy, sell, transfer or possess any firearm without having a certificate for it if it is an antique and the reason for its possession or transfer is that it is a curiosity or ornament. It does not have to be in any particular chambering or any any particular design. The examption applies to all firearms whether they are controled under section 1, 2 or 5. The HO guidance that only guns in certain chamberings benefit from the exemption is demonstrably wrong. They say that no firearm chambered for .22rf cartridges can benefit from it yet there is a case which pre-dates the guidance (and the FCC report) whereupon a chap had his conviction quashed for possession of an old War Office trainign rifle in .22rf. As someone has pointed out, Mick Shepherd was acquitted (althoughit sets no precident) and I believe he possessed a 9mm luger and a 1930's Browing or something. J. Ok to own an obsolete calibre for display or collectors reasons, but add ammo from any source and you are risking six years of not daring to drop the soap. It's a shame, these old guns are crying out to be used, lots of lovely rook rifles out there. Just put in FAC if you want to shoot it and take it off again when you want to hang it on the wall. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 There is nothing in law relating to 'obsolete' calibres, per-se. Section 58(2) of the 1968 Act creates an exemption from the need for a firearm or shotgun certificate or authority under section 5 in respect of an antique firearm which is possessed or transferred as a curiosity or ornament. The state of the law is very straight forward. You can buy, sell, transfer or possess any firearm without having a certificate for it if it is an antique and the reason for its possession or transfer is that it is a curiosity or ornament. It does not have to be in any particular chambering or any any particular design. The examption applies to all firearms whether they are controled under section 1, 2 or 5. The HO guidance that only guns in certain chamberings benefit from the exemption is demonstrably wrong. They say that no firearm chambered for .22rf cartridges can benefit from it yet there is a case which pre-dates the guidance (and the FCC report) whereupon a chap had his conviction quashed for possession of an old War Office trainign rifle in .22rf. J. What would be classed as an 'antique'? I might consider my '77 BRNO .22lr to be an antique which I'd possibly like to keep as an ornament - the the way I'm reading what you've written, I could therefore posses it without a certificate, and just hang it on the wall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 What would be classed as an 'antique'? I might consider my '77 BRNO .22lr to be an antique which I'd possibly like to keep as an ornament - the the way I'm reading what you've written, I could therefore posses it without a certificate, and just hang it on the wall? Does it meet the usual English definition of 'antique' though? How many people would agree that something made in 1977 were an antique? Very few, if any, I would guess. If it is an antique and you possess it as a curiosity or ornament then you do not need a certificate for it. The law is very straightforward on that point. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Does it meet the usual English definition of 'antique' though? How many people would agree that something made in 1977 were an antique? Very few, if any, I would guess. If it is an antique and you possess it as a curiosity or ornament then you do not need a certificate for it. The law is very straightforward on that point. J. If it was a car it would be antique possibly a lathe or other tool An antique (Latin: antiquus; old) is an old collectable item. It is collected or desirable because of its age (see definition), beauty, rarity, condition, utility, personal emotional connection, and/or other unique features. It is an object that represents a previous era or time period in human society. It is common practice to define "antique", as applying to objects at least 100 years old. Collectibles are, generally speaking, the possible antiques of the future and generally less than 100 years old.The only real law concerning the definition of the word antique comes from the US customs office, that considers antique as anything 100 years old. I could see stuff from 2001 being classed as antique in certain circles The Apple II is 1977 vintage and is rare and collectible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 If it was a car it would be antique possibly a lathe or other tool I could see stuff from 2001 being classed as antique in certain circles The Apple II is 1977 vintage and is rare and collectible! Where did you source the definition you quoted? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Where did you source the definition you quoted? J. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antique Of course.....but its US so wont apply anyway..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Well a buddy asked me to sell a smoothbore Enfield Musket and it looked genuinely old. I enquired at Henry Kranks about value and they said that very genuine looking replicas were still being made in India, they said if I brought it in and it wasn't an antique and it wasn't on a ticket, they would be forced to take it off me, so I gave my mate the bad news and declined any part in it. Easy to fall foul without realising you did anything wrong. How about a .455 Webley Mk6? I'd like one of those! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 How about a .455 Webley Mk6? I'd like one of those! I wondered the same thing as that, and when I enquired with the firearms dept they said it is still considered a common calibre and its also easy to fire other .45 rounds through it, so no, its still a section 5 pistol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) I had a Webley Mk6 once, sigh...... :( I think Fiocchi still produce .455 ammo, they certainly did a few years back. I think the whole antique firearm rules are under a bit of Home Office scrutiny at the moment. There have been quite a few old revolvers chambered for .44 S&W Russian (a long obsolete calibre not commercially loaded) sold as antiques. Some of these have been used in crime as the case dimensions are almost identical to either .44 mag or special (forget which) so can easily be reloaded Edited September 11, 2012 by Blunderbuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldwanderer Posted September 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 As it happens, I bumped into an old friend from collage last weekend who shew me a gun that hopefully falls into this; It's a folding .410 "poachers gun", everything works but I'm not sure it'd be a good idea to actually fire it - it's certainly seen better days, the last 30 or so in a shed apparently. Apparently it's Victorian and I'd say that's probably right. It's not on any license and he doesn't wish to use it or even hang it on a wall - just not get rid of it :s I said I'd ask anyway but for obvious reasons wouldn't want to ask the police or have any more to do with it than asking here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 I wondered the same thing as that, and when I enquired with the firearms dept they said it is still considered a common calibre and its also easy to fire other .45 rounds through it, so no, its still a section 5 pistol. Seems a daft decision, any obsolete gun can be converted to fire some current round, and doing so puts it back into non obsolete mode. The fact it cannot be done safely.... http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/9296/CAUTION--455-REVOLVERS-ALTERED--SHOOT-45-ACP--45-Auto-Rim#.UE-fJrKPWa0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 As it happens, I bumped into an old friend from collage last weekend who shew me a gun that hopefully falls into this; It's a folding .410 "poachers gun", everything works but I'm not sure it'd be a good idea to actually fire it - it's certainly seen better days, the last 30 or so in a shed apparently. Apparently it's Victorian and I'd say that's probably right. It's not on any license and he doesn't wish to use it or even hang it on a wall - just not get rid of it :s I said I'd ask anyway but for obvious reasons wouldn't want to ask the police or have any more to do with it than asking here. any .410 needs to be on a ticket unless it has a ticket to say it's been de-activated. So the scenario could be armed police bashing down the door and a six year stretch in prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 There is a little known law that exempts you from needing a licence to own a .22 rifle if you are a member of a club. Strange but true. Try getting that past your FEO, I wish you luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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