DaveK Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) come on guys let it die yeah, then we can see if resurrection is really possible. I'm off to visit the Landover Baptist Church forum. Remember that one folks? Edited September 23, 2012 by DaveK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 I'm not religious. I think religions are invented by humans to either explain a phenomenon or control others. However, I know very intelligent, rational people who believe in God. They are not fools. So, I have to think of an explanation. The only explanation I can think of is the one I wrote about earlier - that our incredibly powerful and mysterious subconcious helps us in times of need. If I'm right, and this is a common ability shared by many people, then is this not the God we talk about ? Maybe you don't think your own mind can play tricks on you, I'd ask have you ever had deja-vu ? I have. I've had it so strongly that I'd swear that I've done something before, to the point where I can't quite predict what happens next but as soon as it happens I think "I knew that would happen". The mind is a powerful thing, and I'm quite prepared to believe that a deep part of it can send suggestions to the conscious part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) yeah, then we can see if resurrection is really possible. I'm off to visit the Landover Baptist Church forum. Remember that one folks? ah yes the home of the blessed four wheel drive mobile pulpit Edited September 23, 2012 by storme37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) You're not arguing about God, You're arguing about religion. Why does the concept of an intelligent creator have to stand or fall solely on the evidence of scripture? Believers search for evidence of God's existence in books written by men and science searches the same books for factual errors in the understanding of physics and geolological time to prove that he does not. Is that as far as anyone has got? Its like two children caught sqabbling and both blaming the other for starting it. All religious texts are surely less the word of God than manifestos of sectarian claims to his special favour. They are political pamphlets all of them. And why should the truth of evolution and natural selection automatically negate any possibility of intelligent design. The evidence points to quite the reverse. The laws of the universe are highly intelligent, beautifully so, but implacable. Nothing escapes them, nothing breaks them, nothing exists without them. Philosophers and theologians have wasted thousands of years mythologising the truth contained in the collision of particles. And science seems intent on wasting the next thousand doing the same from the opposite direction. And since all particulate matter is essentially energy and energy cannot be extinguished only reflected, deflected, absorbed or repelled it is an inescapable thruth that each irreducible particle of which we and everything else in the universe is made lasts forever. We really are immortal. Can't see what all the song and dance is about. But what do I know. Very eloquent Gimlet... Science and religion are, in fact, far closer bedfellows than most would think, however, there is one HUGE problem with the idea of intelligent design... Intelligent design would require a designer or 'creator...' then we have the question of 'who created the creator!' I doubt, given until the end of time, humans will ever 'fully understand' the universe, it's nature and I suppose, most importantly, it's origin. I can however say with some certainty, that it's origin was not some beardy omnipotent bloke who 'poofed' things into existence over a working week and then had to have a lie down on Sunday.. BUT... I cannot disprove beardy's existence and at that point, for me, there is no longer an argument, only personal opinion and... everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. However, I will, just for old times sake, refer all once more to 'Russell's Teapot!' Edited September 23, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) theres some nice christians having a meeting tonight down the road from me out side the black familys house there a bit poor do you think they brought them some food parcels? one of them asked if i had any rope perhaps they want to help him tow his car Edited September 23, 2012 by storme37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 You're not arguing about God, You're arguing about religion. Why does the concept of an intelligent creator have to stand or fall solely on the evidence of scripture? Believers search for evidence of God's existence in books written by men and science searches the same books for factual errors in the understanding of physics and geolological time to prove that he does not. Is that as far as anyone has got? Its like two children caught sqabbling and both blaming the other for starting it. All religious texts are surely less the word of God than manifestos of sectarian claims to his special favour. They are political pamphlets all of them. And why should the truth of evolution and natural selection automatically negate any possibility of intelligent design. The evidence points to quite the reverse. The laws of the universe are highly intelligent, beautifully so, but implacable. Nothing escapes them, nothing breaks them, nothing exists without them. Philosophers and theologians have wasted thousands of years mythologising the truth contained in the collision of particles. And science seems intent on wasting the next thousand doing the same from the opposite direction. And since all particulate matter is essentially energy and energy cannot be extinguished only reflected, deflected, absorbed or repelled it is an inescapable thruth that each irreducible particle of which we and everything else in the universe is made lasts forever. We really are immortal. Can't see what all the song and dance is about. But what do I know. you for got about the bindery code Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the Anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the Source and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the Matrix, to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you are going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction: the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you to the simple and obvious truth: she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness. iam going to have to put on my waders this is getting deeeeeeeep lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) heres one from the local sunday school, learning the ways of the lord his parents must be so proud Edited September 23, 2012 by storme37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonblasterian Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Why are the catholic priests always parked up in their cars outside schools. Is it to give something religious to the children. heres one from the local sunday school, learning the ways of the lord his parents must be so proud Obviously one a priest is going to look after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Why are the catholic priests always parked up in their cars outside schools. Is it to give something religious to the children. Obviously one a priest is going to look after. you bad man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Very eloquent Gimlet... Science and religion are, in fact, far closer bedfellows than most would think, however, there is one HUGE problem with the idea of intelligent design... Intelligent design would require a designer or 'creator...' then we have the question of 'who created the creator!' I doubt, given until the end of time, humans will ever 'fully understand' the universe, it's nature and I suppose, most importantly, it's origin. I can however say with some certainty, that it's origin was not some beardy omnipotent bloke who 'poofed' things into existence over a working week and then had to have a lie down on Sunday.. BUT... I cannot disprove beardy's existence and at that point, for me, there is no longer an argument, only personal opinion and... everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. However, I will, just for old times sake, refer all to 'Russell's Teapot!' The concept of 'Creation', of a thing being brought into existence from something else by an act of will strikes me as a very human hang-up. The idea that nothing can exist until someone or something makes it so. That is the result of trying to force an elusive, imponderable notion onto the crude framework of human experience: it stretches it to breaking point. Of course an intelligent designer as God the vast bearded uber-human is preposterous, its a pantomime horse. The weak point is not the possibility of an intelligent designer but our limited powers to comprehend a thing so far beyond our experience. And what we don't know we make up. Doesn't mean that what we tried to know is not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 anyone seen a UFO ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 The concept of 'Creation', of a thing being brought into existence from something else by an act of will strikes me as a very human hang-up. The idea that nothing can exist until someone or something makes it so. That is the result of trying to force an elusive, imponderable notion onto the crude framework of human experience: it stretches it to breaking point. Of course an intelligent designer as God the vast bearded uber-human is preposterous, its a pantomime horse. The weak point is not the possibility of an intelligent designer but our limited powers to comprehend a thing so far beyond our experience. And what we don't know we make up. Doesn't mean that what we tried to know is not there. Gimlet.... that, I cannot and would not argue with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Fascinating thread this,but there is gooey stuff dribbling from my ears now.....I'm out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Fascinating thread this,but there is gooey stuff dribbling from my ears now.....I'm out! +1 live and let live people can believe in whatever they want as long as its peacefull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Believing in God is all well and good. Believing in Religion is the problem. Believing in a badly edited 2000 year old book is nuts. There’s a lot of evidence for God, mother nature, divine guidance – it’s called many names by many people and I’m fine with that. There’ no proof for it, none against. And if you look up into the night sky in the middle of an ocean or desert with no artificial light then it is quite humbling. I’m fine with belief in God. Believing in Religion is daft. It loses the job of belief and become based on Dogma. You are no longer believing your own thing – you are believing what you are told to believe. That said, it is good to have a congregation and community – one just needs to be wary of what one is actually believing in. Believing in the bible is even worse. It’s a great book to read, to study. It contains some truths, some history and you can learn a lot from it. But, it’s research material, it’s not a rule book. We still read and study and appreciate the laws and science books from Ancient Rome and Greece – but we don’t believe they are accurate now. Although, we find that some things are. Sharing faith and belief is good. It’s like sharing knowledge and ideas. But, preaching about or militantly imposing your views on others them is just a pain in the ****. Lastly – most people keep their faith (or lack of it) private. They don’t talk about it outside their own church or group of friends. If you do decide to start a post about religion and invite people to comment and contribute then I think it’s the job of the OP to steer the discussion to explore different ideas– not to preach their own views. This doesn’t seem to be a discussion but more of an Online Missionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 ok then evolution there is 13 lunar MONTHS in a an earths cyclic ,this is used in farming and the tides, there are 13 full moons in a year , nature goes by this , it was only when religion came about that they changed it and the maths don't add up so we have a leap year to make up the dates,there is also a blue moon ,this is where we have 2 full moons in a month ,the same as when most women have the monthly's about every 28 days , like have said before i have no problem with religion ,i just go with the truth ,i was brought up C OF E and my sister is catholic and ive studied paganism but when the penny finely dropped i found that the only one that can help is "yourself " well said that man Yes and we only use 12, the Romans used 10, then 12 and the Hebrews have used 12 for nearly six millenia. As I have said, the knowledge of some is woefully inadequate to debate religion, when people turn around and say that Kane (sic) killing Able (sic) is the reason he/we got thrown out of the garden of Eden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 As I have said, the knowledge of some is woefully inadequate to debate religion, Sorry Henry, I think you may that wrong. Some people knowledge may be inadequate to discuss the inner workings of your religion, or your religions text book. But, it’s perfectly sufficient to discuss religion in general. I would also suggest that it’s interesting to see how your religion influences and is known by people who don’t believe. It’s religion as a tradition or as cultural influence. Even the staunchest atheist still knows the basics of Christianity and may still observe some of the traditions – I find it interesting to see how that works. I wonder if it’s the same in the Scandinavian countries where old Norse religions still have some impact on tradition. If however this is just a ******* contest about who knows more about the bible then it’s perhaps not the best forum for the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) Believing in God is all well and good. Believing in Religion is the problem. Believing in a badly edited 2000 year old book is nuts. There’s a lot of evidence for God, mother nature, divine guidance – it’s called many names by many people and I’m fine with that. There’ no proof for it, none against. And if you look up into the night sky in the middle of an ocean or desert with no artificial light then it is quite humbling. I’m fine with belief in God. Believing in Religion is daft. It loses the job of belief and become based on Dogma. You are no longer believing your own thing – you are believing what you are told to believe. That said, it is good to have a congregation and community – one just needs to be wary of what one is actually believing in. Believing in the bible is even worse. It’s a great book to read, to study. It contains some truths, some history and you can learn a lot from it. But, it’s research material, it’s not a rule book. We still read and study and appreciate the laws and science books from Ancient Rome and Greece – but we don’t believe they are accurate now. Although, we find that some things are. Sharing faith and belief is good. It’s like sharing knowledge and ideas. But, preaching about or militantly imposing your views on others them is just a pain in the ****. Lastly – most people keep their faith (or lack of it) private. They don’t talk about it outside their own church or group of friends. If you do decide to start a post about religion and invite people to comment and contribute then I think it’s the job of the OP to steer the discussion to explore different ideas– not to preach their own views. This doesn’t seem to be a discussion but more of an Online Missionary. Robl... just to correct one point made there... Whilst I see where you are coming from, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the existence of god! What there is, is lots of stuff we cannot explain yet, and is so beautiful and unimagionably complex and apparently impossible, for us to comprehend it as happening coincidentally or by accident. Our tiny minds can do nothing more than come up with some explanation we can live with... Evolution is a case in point... if you look at what goes on in the human body, it is difficult to comprehend that that all came about without some grand design or creator and yet, science has and can offer empirical evidence that evolution is real and that we did in fact start out life in some pool of goo! it is NOT just a theory or idea.. Indeed, never mind empirical evidence for the existence of god, we don't even have any circumstantial evidence to shore up his existence either.. what we have is some peoples willingness to accept, without question, the content of a 2,000 year old book that didn't even make it to the best seller list until 4 or 500 years after the bloke, JC had gone... Edited September 24, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) Robl... just to correct one point made there... Whilst I see where you are coming from, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the existence of god! Fair enough. Perhaps let’s say that there is evidence of things that can be attributed to God. It’s semantics, I know, but as the great Bard says ‘There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy’ I’m pretty sure that even Stephen Hawkins finishes one of his books with a line about ‘Once we know all about the meaning of the Universe then we will know the mind of God’. However, I’m not here to argue the existence of God. Or even the existence of a philosophy or concept that could be called God, even if it’s allegorical or metaphorical and not actually a bearded chap in the sky. I’m not even going to argue that perhaps God is an Alien who come down and jump started evolution. One can’t prove there is a God, one can’t prove their isn’t. Just smile and get on with the day. However, there is religion. There is a bible. And there is a whole load of proof that 2000 year old books can’t be trusted, and that a lot of churches are based on control or making money. I’m not going to argue that God does or doesn’t exist. But I will argue that Organised religion causes more problems than pretty much anything else in the world, and if there was a god he’d be bloody horrified about the things that are done in his name. (Unless it’s Mars or Ares – they’d probably quite like it.) I think that perhaps some people who appear to be anti-God are perhaps anti-Religion. Edited September 24, 2012 by Robl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 henry is right in one way..many of us who don't believe can't really argue about religion as like myself , ive never been interested in fiction, from my perspective I don't need to prove there is no god, I am happy with my beliefs as henry is happy with his, surely it does not make us bad people what ever we believe in ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) Believing in God is all well and good. Believing in Religion is the problem. Believing in a badly edited 2000 year old book is nuts. Most of it is way over 2000yrs old, but hey, you were close. This doesn’t seem to be a discussion but more of an Online Missionary. No, it appears that only Raja has got what I was on about. Every time there is a contentious issue, some one posts up a preposterous statement such as "Illegal immigrants are here sponging off our state....." The simple fact that our own are sponging much more than the (il)legal immigrants could as they are in the vast majority and that without the (il)legal immigrants we would be up the creek with other EU nations is not a concern of their`s. So using this topic I thought I would try and show people that there are many more facets to any issue that may be discussed here, however as I try to put another point forward, someone comes in with a question on "How many months there are in a year" and another shows a pic of the Klan, who are far from any christian faith as it is possible to get and are there merely to taunt. To sum up, don`t just pick up a thought or statement and run with it, reflect on it, see if it is true or if there are some other facts or concepts that are opposing the original thought/statement and then experiment with all of them to give another thought/statement and carry on as before, it is a learning cycle and we all learn from it. I certainly have. I can not believe that applying a broad brushstroke to every topic is the best way forward and hope I haven`t in the past week or so, however I have in the past and have to move on from there. Is there anything in the above anyone has difficulty with? Edited September 24, 2012 by henry d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Fair enough. Perhaps let’s say that there is evidence of things that can be attributed to God. It’s semantics, I know, but as the great Bard says ‘There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy’ I’m pretty sure that even Stephen Hawkins finishes one of his books with a line about ‘Once we know all about the meaning of the Universe then we will know the mind of God’. However, I’m not here to argue the existence of God. Or even the existence of a philosophy or concept that could be called God, even if it’s allegorical or metaphorical and not actually a bearded chap in the sky. I’m not even going to argue that perhaps God is an Alien who come down and jump started evolution. One can’t prove there is a God, one can’t prove their isn’t. Just smile and get on with the day. However, there is religion. There is a bible. And there is a whole load of proof that 2000 year old books can’t be trusted, and that a lot of churches are based on control or making money. I’m not going to argue that God does or doesn’t exist. But I will argue that Organised religion causes more problems than pretty much anything else in the world, and if there was a god he’d be bloody horrified about the things that are done in his name. (Unless it’s Mars or Ares – they’d probably quite like it.) Robl.. I really agree with your posts...But it's not semantics... 'Evidence' is the wrong word... evidence would suggest proof... so, for example... if the stone tablets given to Moses were in a museum somewhere and could be seen, forensically examined etc.. That would be 'Evidence' what there is is incomprehensibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 henry is right in one way..many of us who don't believe can't really argue about religion as like myself , ive never been interested in fiction, from my perspective I don't need to prove there is no god, I am happy with my beliefs as henry is happy with his, surely it does not make us bad people what ever we believe in ..... You are right Jasper... Tollerance is a very human trait (not just a Christian one!) and everyone is entitled to thier own beliefs However, you won't find non members of the God squad coming on here starting threads, preaching and trying to stuff thier beliefs down everyones throats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 You are right Jasper... Tollerance is a very human trait (not just a Christian one!) and everyone is entitled to thier own beliefs However, you won't find non members of the God squad coming on here starting threads, preaching and trying to stuff thier beliefs down everyones throats... Read the reply above please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) So, you’re using your unwavering faith based on a book of unspecified age as an example of how people should consider different options when they discuss things on the internet. Does anyone else see any irony here? Perhaps you have considered many different options before you chose Christianity, perhaps that’s your point. But, it’s possible that in the other threads where people seem to have a single unwavering view that they have already considered other options and that’s their final conclusion. Just as you considered all your religious options and came to the conclusion of Christianity. Unless of course your point is that you are only trying Christianity for a little while and will be trying Hinduism, Paganism, Wicca and Devil Worship afterwards to get a balanced view on the different religions. Although you currently think the ‘Klan is as far from any Christian faith as it’s possible to get’ perhaps you will give it a try next week so that it can be part of your ‘learning cycle’. Edit – to respond to the above comment. They didn’t start the thread Henry, they are just replying to a question and discussion started by you. Edit 2. Vipa – Your right about evidence, it was the wrong word. (I meant it was my semantic wrangling, not yours.) Edited September 24, 2012 by Robl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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