Salopian Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/03/warning-health-risk-eating-game-lead Those of you who are concerned about the banning of Lead as a suitable material for ammunition. May be interested to read this. Considering the fact that still no conclusive scientific evidence is forthcoming to substantiate the claims of the dangers of eating game shot with Lead, how can BASC representatives condone these press releases and yet promote 'Game to Eat'. Why is Dr. Debbie Paine allowed to run off at the mouth when a lot of her research has been discredited? I am extremely concerned about the future of Lead ammunition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 BASC did not, and does not condone what was written in the Guardian. BBC South West interviewed us today. Paine was calling for a total lead shot ban. We countered this by pointing out that there is no scientific evidence to back up any call for a lead ban, the LAG is still looking at the evidence, let LAG do its job. Of course BASC and the CA will keep promoting game as we have been doing for the last 16 years! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 the LAG is still looking at the evidence, let LAG do its job. David Oh come on David, with all due respect the WWT and RSPB have made it quite clear the LAG is irrelevant as far as they're concerned. It's dead in the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 I stand by the following; the ultimate decision rests with DEFA. BASC has secured the commitment of both Labour and the Lib dems that they have no intention of banning lead shot, or any further restrictions on lead shot and doubtless we will secure the same commitment from the Tories nest week. After all we have secured this same commitment from all the governments since the AEWA sign up. The BASC policy on lead shot remains the benchmark that political parties abide by and other shooting organisation have rightly followed. The government, through Defra and the FSA, has established a Lead Ammunition Group (LAG) involving a wide range of stakeholders, including Dr Pain of the WWT. Its purpose is to review the evidence and give authoritative advice to ministers so that properly informed decisions can be made on public policy and consumer advice. To call for any action before the necessary scientific work has been fully evaluated by the LAG would be a knee-jerk reaction and risk getting it wrong. Unfortunately the WWT has decided to pursue a public campaign to ban lead ammunition before the science has been properly considered. BASC urges all stakeholders to await the results of the proper investigation, which is being conducted by the LAG. To say LAG is dead in the water is way off! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 BASC has secured the commitment of both Labour and the Lib dems that they have no intention of banning lead shot, or any further restrictions on lead shot and doubtless we will secure the same commitment from the Tories nest week. David If that is the case David then well done, and fingers crossed you can get the Tories on board next week. Could this be the reason WWT seem to have split from the group and are now pursuing their own scaremongering tactics? I still cannot see how the LAG can function properly, when one of the main contributors are following their own agenda outside of the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 We're doomed capt mannering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Graffius Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 If a scientist decides to go to the press outside the scientific process with the hope of bypassing it then one conclusion could be that the process is going in the opposite direction to the way that scientist wishes. The Guardian article, despite being factually inaccurate, is a sign that LAG is doing its job properly. Ultimately one member cannot derail the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/19822198 And here too is yet more anti perspectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted October 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 Christopher Graffius wrote:- If a scientist decides to go to the press outside the scientific process with the hope of bypassing it then one conclusion could be that the process is going in the opposite direction to the way that scientist wishes. The Guardian article, despite being factually inaccurate, is a sign that LAG is doing its job properly. Ultimately one member cannot derail the process. Christopher, In industry Ms. Paines actions would be called industrial espionage, or at the very least gross misconduct. The miscreant would probably be summarily dismissed at the very least. To find that she has used data provided by BASC to strengthen her stance is a very difficult pill to swallow for a shooting man, would you like to disclose how much BASC were paid by WWT for their services? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) If a scientist decides to go to the press outside the scientific process with the hope of bypassing it then one conclusion could be that the process is going in the opposite direction to the way that scientist wishes. Very true Mr Graffius,you and I may both well know that,but you aren't seriously suggesting the RSPB,RSPCA,LACS,WWF etc,and more importantly,the media and the general public are going to come to that conclusion are you? Edited October 5, 2012 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 I have never been wildfowling , (largely because i just dont have the fitness for yomping about in the mud) But i can see the point in a lead ban over wildfowl habitats(only) because of the way they eat caused the wildfowl birds themselves lead poisoning. however I do object to it being used as a back door tactic to stop shooting and gun ownershp of all sorts in this country I do really object to some guardian reading leftie puritan bitch trying to use her positiion to scaremonger right at the start of the game season and claiming to do it under the auspices of the LAG / Defra. I believe in quarry ending up in the food chain and the idea of shot game being wasted because of her smear campaign abhorrent Do you think that a few of you chaps could start using depleted uranium shot in place of lead so Muzz Paine actually has something real to complain about ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Graffius Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 I believe the issue of costs/payment has been much discussed on this forum and I don't intend to reopen it because frankly I don't know. I'm also about to leave for the Conservative conference - for my sins I attend all three - so won't have the opportunity to enquire further.. The key here is that our best hope is to act reasonably, sensibly withouit throwing toys out of windows. This is science led. Doing the opposite, as our opponents do, actually does them more damage with the people who will ultimately make the decision. LAG is on the verge of completing the risk assessments for lead shot in the environment, food and wildlife and if things go well we should have a conclusion next Spring. It will then be for the Chairman - John Swift - to advise government. Under the terms of reference - which you can read on LAG's website - the Chairman not the group is the link to Ministers. Christopher.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted October 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Christopher, Perhaps your time could have been better spent at Slimbridge this morning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Christopher, Perhaps your time could have been better spent at Slimbridge this morning? The guy at Slimbridge, I think his name was Chris, said 70% of duck had lead in them. that comes from the Cromie report, the very report BASC worked along side with the WWT on. I said they would use it against, thank you very much for our help BASC. Now you see why I said they "sold out for a hand full of silver". BASC have shot shooting in the foot! Looking at the new Newth report on lead shot they are using the BASC/WWT and the Mudge report another BASC/WWT/RSPB report on lead shot. All **** science. I understand that two of the LAG members tried to get in on the Harris report for the FSA Scotland. Members of the LAG looking at the science are trying to control the very science they are reviewing. I believe that one was Dr Paine and I do not know the name of the other one. Should Dr Paine and the other person be removed from the LAG committee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted October 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 It would be interesting to know how many wildfowl have died slow and painful deaths as the result of wounding by soft iron shot, also the effects of soft iron & ferrous oxide to flesh wounds. Also the effect of soft iron on timber harvesting, and grasslands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 It would be interesting to know how many wildfowl have died slow and painful deaths as the result of wounding by soft iron shot, also the effects of soft iron & ferrous oxide to flesh wounds. Also the effect of soft iron on timber harvesting, and grasslands. ...and added to the lead debate we all revert to stamp collecting as we cannot shoot anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 An update here for you all: http://www.basc.org....B8A2D7FD9AD2B2D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 BASC did not, and does not condone what was written in the Guardian. BBC South West interviewed us today. Paine was calling for a total lead shot ban. We countered this by pointing out that there is no scientific evidence to back up any call for a lead ban, the LAG is still looking at the evidence, let LAG do its job. Of course BASC and the CA will keep promoting game as we have been doing for the last 16 years! David The fact they are using the WWT/BASC report on compliance and now you are saying there is "no scientific evidence". That is what i've been doing for the last year and you fought me all the way. BASC have to make up their minds which side they are on, it looks as if they are running with the hare and hounds on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Same old anti BASC rubbish from you, some things never change. Anyone who has bothered to keep up to date with this issue as its evolved over the decades will know that BASC's position on lead has not changed over all that time and we have been at the sharp end of fighting off calls for more restrictions and even outright bans over the years – and we have just reaffirmed cross party political support yet again. But you will criticize us come what may wont you? I bet the WWT are loving what you post! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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