wymberley Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 It's absolutely throwing it down yet again so I thought I'd may as well do something useful indoors, but have a question for the more experienced Hornet reloaders before I start. I think I may be experiencing cylinder growth in one of the rifles. As yet I'm not certain as when I've fired off the existing loads all cylinders are due for the scrap bin. Some, and now I know not which, have been used at higher pressures than I've now settled on during load development and this may well be the problem. I will know for sure when I subsequently reload the new cylinders which I'm just about to use. Just in case there is a problem, I thought I'd give the following a try so I'd be ready and here comes the question: I have polished my neck sizing die (I suppose you could call it 'blue printed' except the mandrel is now a tad undersize through choice) and I'd prefer to use that for the final re-sizing. I was wondering what would happen if I removed the mandrel from the full length sizer die and ran the cylinders through that first. I figured this would not interfere with the final neck size and would not require any tooling lubricant inside the neck. I've got a load of dead men ready to have a go at but thought I'd just ask for comments before I jump in. Any one? Cheers, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Are you talking about cases? Spent far too long in/with the armed forces; have picked up their jargon: Yep, those brass bits that the heads get pushed into. PS Couldn't remember when the first mention was and had to go and check. Cylinders were in use some 400 years before brass cases. The term related to the paper roll that held the charge and bullet. As our armed forces have been around for a while and used them explains why the old term usage remains instead of the newfangled nomenclature for this recent introduction. Edit: PS Edited October 11, 2012 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 that was a confusing read, say it again in English perhaps? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 surely the cases are just fireformed to the chamber so they may be bigger than standard but fit your rifle, though thats just trying to interpret as best I can from the description, personally I'd leave the dies alone and either full length size or neck size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I just wondered if that was why nobody was answering? Yes, you could well have been right, I simply didn't think having always used that term. However, apparently it seems my prose also needs some work! Many thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 surely the cases are just fireformed to the chamber so they may be bigger than standard but fit your rifle, though thats just trying to interpret as best I can from the description, personally I'd leave the dies alone and either full length size or neck size Thankyou, al4x. Not quite that straight forward as repeated neck sizing can cause problems with case extraction and stiff bolt operation. I suspect that the extractor set up - just one slim claw - on the Weihrauch doesn't help. I won't go into detail - I'll probably confuse myself let alone everyone else - but my plan didn't quite work as hoped - but a small rethink sorted it and I'm delighted with the result by using the most beneficial aspects from both methods of resizing. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 those brass bits that the heads get pushed into. Well I understood the cylinders thing but heads? HEADS?! Aaaaarrrgggh! I found that high pressure loads in my Hornet did result in hardening/splitting issues with the brass. I guess it's because with each size they were pushed around a bit more? I think your idea of checking what's going on with the latest loads could be the way forward. At more sensible pressures they don't seem to grow so much and if that's the case you can avoid full length sizing - something that is a real advantage with the Hornet. I guess removing the mandrel from the FL die could help as it will be one less operation for the necks to go through and would also allow you to get the final size just right. With a polished die and a reduced mandrel do you not suffer with tolerance issues though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Well I understood the cylinders thing but heads? HEADS?! Aaaaarrrgggh! I found that high pressure loads in my Hornet did result in hardening/splitting issues with the brass. I guess it's because with each size they were pushed around a bit more? I think your idea of checking what's going on with the latest loads could be the way forward. At more sensible pressures they don't seem to grow so much and if that's the case you can avoid full length sizing - something that is a real advantage with the Hornet. I guess removing the mandrel from the FL die could help as it will be one less operation for the necks to go through and would also allow you to get the final size just right. With a polished die and a reduced mandrel do you not suffer with tolerance issues though? Hello, mate, "HEADS"! absolutely an anathema, hence the wink. There's one good reason why the trick with the full length die didn't work, but I may have found a bit of kit which I believe would work and which you may you may have liked if you weren't deserting the 22 for pastures new. However, as they may decide to make a 17 Hornet version, if I get the answer back that I'm waiting for which indicates that my belief is correct, I'll give you the heads up. As you seem to be the only one that knows what the hell I'm on about, I'll PM. Cheers PS Missed your last bit - no, the reduced mandrel is marginal, 0.001" Edited October 11, 2012 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Wymberley, can I have a wrap of whatever you're on. It's obviously good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Spent far too long in/with the armed forces; have picked up their jargon: Yep, those brass bits that the heads get pushed into. PS Couldn't remember when the first mention was and had to go and check. Cylinders were in use some 400 years before brass cases. The term related to the paper roll that held the charge and bullet. As our armed forces have been around for a while and used them explains why the old term usage remains instead of the newfangled nomenclature for this recent introduction. Edit: PS I was an an ammunition technician and later an ammunition technical officer in the army for 23 years. I never heard anyone refer to cartridge cases as "cylinders". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I was an an ammunition technician and later an ammunition technical officer in the army for 23 years. I never heard anyone refer to cartridge cases as "cylinders". Should have got some time in and stayed a bit longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Wymberley, can I have a wrap of whatever you're on. It's obviously good stuff. Don't think you're old enough to handle it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 If you take the manderal out it will reduce the size of the brass drastically and too much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Going back as far as the 1970's I never heard them referred to as that either. ................ and I'm older than an old thing so get it wrapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 If you take the manderal out it will reduce the size of the brass drastically and too much! Many thanks. That's why I asked and because of the way the neck is sized with these dies you're quite right as I discovered. It only adversely affects the neck by a couple of thou', of course, but that is precisely what I was trying to avoid. However, as there's nothing new on the planet, I'm not the only one with the problem and the answer it seems is available. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 surely the answer is to neck size till you are bothered and then full length size say 1 in each 4 loadings or something along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 All i can say is after 6 firings of RWS brass neck sizing lightly with a chamber type hand die i have no need to FL size. I use a fair load of Lil gun 12.2 and push a 45grn pill at 2900 fps (measured). If my cases were tight i wouldn't be able to fit them into the die type i use. A lot of this will no doubt depend on the tightness or otherwise of the guns chamber as the brass can only expand that far and no further. The std .22 Hornet headspaces on the Rim not the shoulder for those who are not aware so you are not having to set the shoulder back every so often to get the bolt to close effectively without undue pressure. I dont wish to labour this point as my thoughts are maybe well known in this regards now but the hornet in its std form should be re-loaded in a different way to say a .243 etc. to achieve high brass life and the best accuracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Well I am having fun with the old lee die set I aqured lol I managed to break the sizing die oops :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 Well I am having fun with the old lee die set I aqured lol I managed to break the sizing die oops :( Are you sure? Obviously, if it's in bits, one of which is the decapper pin, then of course you have, but you don't say which type it is. Not everyone would buy a set containing the full length sizer and seating die - for the Hornet, it's possibly more likely to be the collet type sizing die. In this case it may just have seized up and stripping it down will sort it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 All i can say is after 6 firings of RWS brass neck sizing lightly with a chamber type hand die i have no need to FL size. I use a fair load of Lil gun 12.2 and push a 45grn pill at 2900 fps (measured). If my cases were tight i wouldn't be able to fit them into the die type i use. A lot of this will no doubt depend on the tightness or otherwise of the guns chamber as the brass can only expand that far and no further. The std .22 Hornet headspaces on the Rim not the shoulder for those who are not aware so you are not having to set the shoulder back every so often to get the bolt to close effectively without undue pressure. I dont wish to labour this point as my thoughts are maybe well known in this regards now but the hornet in its std form should be re-loaded in a different way to say a .243 etc. to achieve high brass life and the best accuracy Thanks for your input, all sorted. I have to say that at £14 for 100 45 gn bullets which you can propel 2900 ft/sec with 12.2 gns of Lil'Gun for me is decidedly Utopian in nature! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 Are you sure? Obviously, if it's in bits, one of which is the decapper pin, then of course you have, but you don't say which type it is. Not everyone would buy a set containing the full length sizer and seating die - for the Hornet, it's possibly more likely to be the collet type sizing die. In this case it may just have seized up and stripping it down will sort it. No it's the one with the de capping pin in side I got a case well wedged inside it and followed the instructions to remove it by slackening the nut on top and tapping it out with a hammer. Well the case is still stuck and the de capping pin is now bent and stuck as well. A job well done I would say ow well I am not going to have a paddy about it. Will just get a new one lesson learnt Lil less hammer in future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 Lil less hammer in future And a little more lubricant perhaps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.17 rem Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 Well ! I started reading this thinking it a bit strange and ended the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 Well I am having fun with the old lee die set I aqured lol I managed to break the sizing die oops :( by crickey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dully1963 Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 Well ! I started reading this thinking it a bit strange and ended the same way. Me To Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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