.243 variation

[Olliesims]

I've been thinking about putting in for a .243 for a few weeks now but the only thing that's holding me back is its no good to me if its on closed conditions, I currently have a .223 on open conditions but what are the chances they will give me the .243 on open as well? I would like to have deer and fox but when I tried to get muntjac on the .223 they wouldn't give me because I needed a dsc1 or experience gained from another shooter.. Is this a law or a made up condition?

[JonathanL]

I've been thinking about putting in for a .243 for a few weeks now but the only thing that's holding me back is its no good to me if its on closed conditions, I currently have a .223 on open conditions but what are the chances they will give me the .243 on open as well? I would like to have deer and fox but when I tried to get muntjac on the .223 they wouldn't give me because I needed a dsc1 or experience gained from another shooter.. Is this a law or a made up condition?

 

It is most certainly NOT law. They cannot simply apply arbitrary conditions. The problem is that you cnnot appeal a condition.

 

I think that in this tye of case you may be able appeal a condition indirectly. If you apply for X rifle to use for stalking on various pieces of land which you may not know the locations of in advance and they place a restriction on where you can use it then you could probably argue that it amounts to a constructive refusal.

 

It is also worth remebering that there is no such thing as an 'open' or 'closed' certificate. This is just language that shooters have invented to describe certain conditions that the police apply to FAC's.

 

J.

[steve_b_wales]

When I purchased my .243, it was for fox control, and on an 'open'ticket. After about 4 years, I decided that I wanted to try stalking, and asked the police to include deer on my ticket. They refused, stating that shooting deer was a different ball game, and that I should be mentored. I pointed out to them that they were quite happy to allow me to shoot at a fox, sometimes at night, and that it's a small animal, but were against me shooting deer, up to the size of a Fallow buck, and by daylight only. They still insisted on the mentoring condition. I contacted BASC, and wihin two weeks, I had my .243 for deer, which was also 'open'. The police cannot insist that you have a DSC1 certificate either.

 

Steve.

[Olliesims]

My worry is if I apply and they stick it as a "closed condition it's not any good to me, my other permissions either don't have clearance for any firearm or only for .22rf and the owners don't want them to be cleared for anything at all or more than what they already are, if I was to ask my feo would he be able to answer my question or just give the I don't know response. Regarding the deer condition and basc if you ring them about the problem do they then get in contact with the force behind your license? Cheers

[steve_b_wales]

My worry is if I apply and they stick it as a "closed condition it's not any good to me, my other permissions either don't have clearance for any firearm or only for .22rf and the owners don't want them to be cleared for anything at all or more than what they already are, if I was to ask my feo would he be able to answer my question or just give the I don't know response. Regarding the deer condition and basc if you ring them about the problem do they then get in contact with the force behind your license? Cheers

 

In my case, BASC contacted my police force (s.Wales) and spoke/emailed the person in charge of firearm licensing. The police then got in touch with me, asking for my FAC to be sent to them, so that they can enter the details onto it.

BASC are excellent in helping with this kind of 'problem' and have also helped me get a ridiculous condition that the police wanted to add regarding my .308, overturned.

[Kes]

I have just acquired a a condition for a .243 for deer in this wonderful county and it is 'closed'.

It has 'fox whilst in pursuit of deer' but and overriding condition that the .243 may only be used whilst out with an experienced stalker, at the moment..

It doesnt say mentoring but he has to confirm I'm ok before I can shoot without him and then only on land approved by the Chief Con. I am advised that 4 stalks is enough but that obviously depends on the 'experienced stalker' who writes the letter, unless its just simply "he's been on 4 stalks"'.. This is not clear.

After his letter is received saying I've been on four stalks, i then wait a year, at least, for an 'open' cert on the .243. I can have a .308/.243, on the same basis. The land I shoot may be cleared for a .243 but probably not a .308. So if I want to use the rifle for fox, I either have to wait to be 'approved for a deer rifle', choose a .243, and hope for a condition to allow fox - deer are not to be shot on my permission.

Or go for a .308 and use it elsewhere, until opened after approximately a year and hope for a 'deer and fox' condition..

I have asked for the land I shoot to be checked for .243 as, if this were the case, I could dispense with the .223 I have had for 5 years now on an open certificate, conditioned 'fox only'.

I dont think BASC can sort this and - to be honest I dont find it too much of a difficulty (new to stalking) except that apparently I'm ok with a .223 but a .243, no - not just yet. Oh and the fox thing.

 

If others think this an imposition then I'll go to BASC ( I am a member) for the sake of others and ask them for 'guidance' but I'm trying to be responsible whilst learning the new 'trade'.

What do you chaps think?

Edited October 28, 2012 by Kes

[bedwards1966]

As said, they cannot make you do a DSC.

If you've already got a .223 on an open certificate then there is no reason why they wouldn't let you have a .243 open as well, however the police have their own silly rules, and common sense can be a little lacking (my father has a .308 on an open cert, and has just been granted a .243 as well - but on a closed cert/condition!).

 

I'd suggest you phone your FEO, he/she can tell you how your farce operates, and what conditions will be added.

BASC can be very helpful on these matters, but I'd speak to your FEO first.

Edited October 28, 2012 by bedwards1966

[JonathanL]

My worry is if I apply and they stick it as a "closed condition it's not any good to me, my other permissions either don't have clearance for any firearm or only for .22rf and the owners don't want them to be cleared for anything at all or more than what they already are, if I was to ask my feo would he be able to answer my question or just give the I don't know response. Regarding the deer condition and basc if you ring them about the problem do they then get in contact with the force behind your license? Cheers

 

That is precisely my point re; constructive refusal. If you apply for something because you intend to do a specific thing with it and they grant it but in such a manner that you cannot do what you orignally intended then that is a constructive refual to gant the appication.

 

If you apply for a .308 rifle for target shooting and they put a condition on your cert saying that you cannot use the .308 rifle on a rifle range then although they have granted it the end result has exactly the same effect as a refusal to grant you authority for a .308 rifle.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

As said, they cannot make you do a DSC.

If you've already got a .223 on an open certificate then there is no reason why they wouldn't let you have a .243 open as well, however the police have their own silly rules, and common sense can be a little lacking (my father has a .308 on an open cert, and has just been granted a .243 as well - but on a closed cert/condition!).

 

I'd suggest you phone your FEO, he/she can tell you how your farce operates, and what conditions will be added.

BASC can be very helpful on these matters, but I'd speak to your FEO first.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

J.

[al4x]

The slight issue you have is not having any suitable land to shoot it on, round here you ideally have a base permission that is cleared to whatever you have. That applies whether your ticket is open or not, with deer it can be pushed on a paid stalking basis and lots get it but it does cause a problem. As you have asked for muntjac etc before this will be no different. BASC may be able to try for you but lots are now sticking to their guns and wanting experience or DSC1 or herts both

[shotgun sam]

I spoke to my FEO about Muntjac and was told they are classed as vermin and as such the vermin condition on my certificate lets me shoot them (Strathclyde Police)

[CharlieT]

I spoke to my FEO about Muntjac and was told they are classed as vermin and as such the vermin condition on my certificate lets me shoot them (Strathclyde Police)

 

Unbelievable and to think these people are responsible for applying firearms law.

 

Perhaps you should point out the Deer Act to him. Vermin my ****.

[Dekers]

I spoke to my FEO about Muntjac and was told they are classed as vermin and as such the vermin condition on my certificate lets me shoot them (Strathclyde Police)

Unbelievable and to think these people are responsible for applying firearms law.

 

Perhaps you should point out the Deer Act to him. Vermin my ****.

 

Oh dear, it does make you wonder more and more about the knowledge/ability/fitness of those with the power of Firearms Licencing!

[Dekers]

My worry is if I apply and they stick it as a "closed condition it's not any good to me, my other permissions either don't have clearance for any firearm or only for .22rf and the owners don't want them to be cleared for anything at all or more than what they already are, if I was to ask my feo would he be able to answer my question or just give the I don't know response. Regarding the deer condition and basc if you ring them about the problem do they then get in contact with the force behind your license? Cheers

 

I'm not following how/why you feel entitled to a .243 for deer then, what have I missed, obviously being an old boy something has escaped my attention.

[Dekers]

I have just acquired a a condition for a .243 for deer in this wonderful county and it is 'closed'.

It has 'fox whilst in pursuit of deer' but and overriding condition that the .243 may only be used whilst out with an experienced stalker, at the moment..,

.........................

 

The world is going mad, just what is that all about, they don't mind you shooting fox, but only when you are out after the deer and with a Mentor, WHY?

 

That is stupid, I know some interpret that as, well you can't shoot deer at night so that is very restrictive, well that too is dumb, what is to stop you tracking the fox for several hours you saw in the daytime, or setting up at night for your deer stalk at daybreak and seeing a fox, you went out in pursuit of deer didn't you?

Edited October 29, 2012 by Dekers

[JonathanL]

The world is going mad, just what is that all about, they don't mind you shooting fox, but only when you are out after the deer and with a Mentor, WHY?

 

That is stupid, I know some interpret that as, well you can't shoot deer at night so that is very restrictive, well that too is dumb, what is to stop you tracking the fox for several hours you saw in the daytime, or setting up at night for your deer stalk at daybreak and seeing a fox, you went out in pursuit of deer didn't you?

 

As I think I said on a previous thread, the vast mjority of conditions relating to use of the firearm which are appended to FAC's appear to be almost totally meaningless and, often, use such bad constrution that it is impossible to define their meaning. Moreover, the way in which they are written means that they place very little restriction as to where or how you can use the firearm.

 

My own FAC says "The firearms and ammunition shall be used for target shooting and only whilst member of XXXX club on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim". The certificate does not say that I may only use then for target shooting. It appears to say that I can only use them for target shooting whilst I remain a member of XXXX club but what is the reason for the use of the word 'and' before the word 'only'? It doesn't make sense. It would make sense if the word 'only' were placed before the word 'be' but it isn't.

 

So, the condition says that I shall (which, legally, is an imperative so means the same as 'must) use the firearms for target shooting but no where does it say that I must only use them for target shooting. Therefore, if I decide to go deer stalking what offence to I commit? It cannot be one of breaching the conditions of my FAC because there is no condition which says I can't deer stalk with it.

 

J.

[al4x]

I reckon Jonathan that if you went deerstalking you would be fine, for the simple reason that if your discussion went the way your forum posts do that they would rapidly loose the will to live while discussing technicalities and drop all charges

[Olliesims]

The slight issue you have is not having any suitable land to shoot it on, round here you ideally have a base permission that is cleared to whatever you have. That applies whether your ticket is open or not, with deer it can be pushed on a paid stalking basis and lots get it but it does cause a problem. As you have asked for muntjac etc before this will be no different. BASC may be able to try for you but lots are now sticking to their guns and wanting experience or DSC1 or herts both

 

I have land I can have a base permission I can have cleared for it no problems at all but the farmer doesn't want me to shoot deer there due to ****** clearing most of them up, so if its closed and only for there I can't use it for what I want, my other permissions with a healthy deer population I would be able to take them the farmer doesn't want the police there,that's why I would need it open

[al4x]

that helps on one hand as long as he will sign you a permission for deer if required, certainly here I had a .223 and on 5 year renewal added a .243 and that came back open with everything else on my ticket. Personally I reckon if you can get the slip so you have the reason to aquire that is half the job done, DSC1 or a mentor is the other issue and some cave in to BASC and some don't I can see why they want one or the other so depends if you want to fight it or go with the flow. I went with the flow and it was a little onerus having to have both DSC1 and experience it hasn't been that bad a thing. DSC1 is a good course to do and the experience side also gives you a lot more confidence once you go out to do it alone,

[Olliesims]

I use my .223 a lot so i would say I have a gained a lot of experience With cf I know 243 is a lot different but wouldn't they see I've had a lot of use with a cf and not hit me with a mentor condition? Or does it depend on police force?

[al4x]

its the Deer bit if they won't give you deer on your .223 they won't on .243. I had no mentor on .223 and actually could fox with my .243 it just read and deer when accompanied.

It all depends how hard you want to argue over legalities of adding any conditions or asking for DSC1

[bedwards1966]

As I think I said on a previous thread, the vast mjority of conditions relating to use of the firearm which are appended to FAC's appear to be almost totally meaningless and, often, use such bad constrution that it is impossible to define their meaning. Moreover, the way in which they are written means that they place very little restriction as to where or how you can use the firearm.

 

My own FAC says "The firearms and ammunition shall be used for target shooting and only whilst member of XXXX club on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim". The certificate does not say that I may only use then for target shooting. It appears to say that I can only use them for target shooting whilst I remain a member of XXXX club but what is the reason for the use of the word 'and' before the word 'only'? It doesn't make sense. It would make sense if the word 'only' were placed before the word 'be' but it isn't.

 

So, the condition says that I shall (which, legally, is an imperative so means the same as 'must) use the firearms for target shooting but no where does it say that I must only use them for target shooting. Therefore, if I decide to go deer stalking what offence to I commit? It cannot be one of breaching the conditions of my FAC because there is no condition which says I can't deer stalk with it.

 

J.

 

After agreeing that what you said seems to make sense on the thread you mention, I ended up speaking to a former lawyer over this.

"The law does not concern itself with trifles"

I was told this means that, as it's quite clear what the police intend regarding conditions such as the one you post above, and also 'open/closed' certificate conditions, you would not win if you ended up in court over a breech of conditions.

[Kes]

Given the variety of conditions and the differences in application - it should perhaps be a feature of shooting organisations to seek to produce a knowedgeable set of typical conditions from which any police force could choose.

Maybe the ACPO would consider approving a set of wise conditions and recommend these to all Chief Cons., as a supplementary , cutomer-focussed initiative ?

 

Would it not be wise to pursue and get ACPO to agree to a condition nationally of 'all legal quarry' and pass the onus to the shooter.

 

Would it not also be wise to set out and get ACPO to agree that, based on legal quarry a .22lr would be for XXXXX including fox, A .17hmr/hornet/remington/fireball etc can be used for the same quarry as a .22lr? A .223/222/22-250 can be used for fox and vermin and deer (CWD and Munjac) etc etc and leave the rest to the user?

Surely it isnt beyond the whit of man to compare this to the HO Guidelines and set out relevant sections that might be referred to?

Surely, it should be agreed with ACPO that if you want to shoot deer you need no additional training or qualification, provided you intend to consume the meat yourself, just the calibres to condition?

If no shooting organisation can see this approach would help their membership then there are no sensible shooting organisations.

 

In my area Cheshire suggest 4 stalks to obtain a .243 land not required aslong as you stalk where its permitted - thats maybe one deer taken or none at all ? Greater Manchester suggest 6 stalks - no reason or explanation and thats an improvement on 'a letter from an experienced stalker', or 'a mentor' for however long, or a DS1/2 or whatever.

 

Maybe there are just too few of us to care about for most shooting organisations but I have to say if you dont know your membership or look after their needs you wont have them long. At present I am with BASC but I might just go for insurance next time - my shooting protection and enhancement needs simply aren't being met.

[al4x]

so some of us should loose our current ability to control certain species by your reckoning Kes?

[Dekers]

Given the variety of conditions and the differences in application - it should perhaps be a feature of shooting organisations to seek to produce a knowedgeable set of typical conditions from which any police force could choose.

Maybe the ACPO would consider approving a set of wise conditions and recommend these to all Chief Cons., as a supplementary , cutomer-focussed initiative ?

 

Would it not be wise to pursue and get ACPO to agree to a condition nationally of 'all legal quarry' and pass the onus to the shooter.

 

Would it not also be wise to set out and get ACPO to agree that, based on legal quarry a .22lr would be for XXXXX including fox, A .17hmr/hornet/remington/fireball etc can be used for the same quarry as a .22lr? A .223/222/22-250 can be used for fox and vermin and deer (CWD and Munjac) etc etc and leave the rest to the user?

Surely it isnt beyond the whit of man to compare this to the HO Guidelines and set out relevant sections that might be referred to?

Surely, it should be agreed with ACPO that if you want to shoot deer you need no additional training or qualification, provided you intend to consume the meat yourself, just the calibres to condition?

If no shooting organisation can see this approach would help their membership then there are no sensible shooting organisations.

 

In my area Cheshire suggest 4 stalks to obtain a .243 land not required aslong as you stalk where its permitted - thats maybe one deer taken or none at all ? Greater Manchester suggest 6 stalks - no reason or explanation and thats an improvement on 'a letter from an experienced stalker', or 'a mentor' for however long, or a DS1/2 or whatever.

 

Maybe there are just too few of us to care about for most shooting organisations but I have to say if you dont know your membership or look after their needs you wont have them long. At present I am with BASC but I might just go for insurance next time - my shooting protection and enhancement needs simply aren't being met.

 

The condition ANY OTHER LAWFUL QUARRY was discussed, agreed and introduced by ACPO a few years back now, they all agreed it, but loads of regions then decided NOT to use it.

 

Anyway, ACPO does not make the law, they are just a Gentlemans club (EDIT, sorry, there are a couple of Female Chief Constables), anything they do has no legal force, we have a Government and Monarch for that.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Dekers