lumpy Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 I give up ! it's pointless trying to put a valid point across on here without getting drawn into some pointless ******** . Getting back to my point It still make's sense to be able to tax it than carry on the way we are "Getting Nowhere" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 well actually use is decreasing if you believe the statistics which would sort of suggest with the status quo we are getting somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) well actually use is decreasing if you believe the statistics which would sort of suggest with the status quo we are getting somewhere We have been getting more liberal over the years, And its showing with decreasing useage, But its not good enough we are still spending billions on a failed system. Edited December 12, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted December 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 and i was told by my FAO to hold a firearms licence / sgc the applicant has to be squeeky clean some people on this thread have certainly changed my opinion on that one,,i have read some bull but what some people are saying is unreal,,, just as a point i,ve been to amsterdam on a few occasions and not once did i go there to use drugs and neither did anyone i travelled with,, my buddy,s brother in law has lived there since 1978 and anyone carrying over 1 ounce is deemed as being a dealer and is treated accordingly by the law,, i also know a couple of guy,s that went there on a stag weekend and non where interested in using drugs , they went for the night life and the red light district legalising cannabis in this country is not going to happen in my lifetime thank god and to suggest all people under the age of 30 go there just for drugs is bordering on insane, people who were around to see the damage done since the late 70,s through heroine and cannabis will tell you the same,,that to legalise it would only cause more problems i have lost a lot of school mates through the after effects of drugs and even those that survived now have no teeth no hair no job and are permanent bums,,why ,,, because the drugs have affected them mentally, some have even gone to the extreme of taking their own lives leaving good families behind ,, so sad but true,,so if anyone is trying to change my mind then just speak to someone a bit older than 30 ,, i think you will see they have a different opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Top posts bloke, well done. It's not the drugs that are the problem after all there is no problem getting them and they have never been cheaper, its the associated crime and misery they cause, drink included. Until this country gets a grip on prevention and rehabilitation there will remain a problem. Legalizing it will make no difference and in my opinion sends the wrong message to young and impressionable people who may not otherwise be tempted. I dont go out chasing drug users but I can guarantee u most of my customers are users and end up riding the free bus to hmp wherever the **** at some point. Not through having drugs on them but rather acting under their infulence or raising funds to feed their habit. This includes drinkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I give up ! it's pointless trying to put a valid point across on here without getting drawn into some pointless ******** . Getting back to my point It still make's sense to be able to tax it than carry on the way we are "Getting Nowhere" The point is, you are missing the point. It's so easy to say "let's tax it and make some money from an obvious problem". The question is how do you do it. It's clear that there is complete confusion based on folks not knowing what has been done so far. Holland is an example - it's still illegal at all levels but at some levels decriminalised. Portugal seem to have taken a similar approach but added in some extra layers to help treatment. I haven't got a clue what the US are up to and like prostitution, it's often legal to sell it but not solicit or buy it. In fact, is there anywhere that's made cannabis legal rather than decriminalised - rhetorical. As said above, there is a danger of sending the wrong message and the message is already muddled by tabloid journalism. So your point is taken but how would you do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) So your point is taken but how would you do it? Tax and regulate like alcohol, Coupled with comprehensive rehabilitation and education at a young age of the actual dangers and safe use and the fact that legalisation does not mean its suggested or recommended. The implication that some people keep posing that supporters of legalization are drug uses is one of the more pathetic things ive read recently. Maybe supporters of prohibition are drug dealers not willing to lose their market share? Actually ignore that. I'm not pathetic enough suggest such a thing. Edited December 13, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 and i was told by my FAO to hold a firearms licence / sgc the applicant has to be squeeky clean some people on this thread have certainly changed my opinion on that one,,i have read some bull but what some people are saying is unreal,,, just as a point i,ve been to amsterdam on a few occasions and not once did i go there to use drugs and neither did anyone i travelled with,, my buddy,s brother in law has lived there since 1978 and anyone carrying over 1 ounce is deemed as being a dealer and is treated accordingly by the law,, i also know a couple of guy,s that went there on a stag weekend and non where interested in using drugs , they went for the night life and the red light district legalising cannabis in this country is not going to happen in my lifetime thank god and to suggest all people under the age of 30 go there just for drugs is bordering on insane, people who were around to see the damage done since the late 70,s through heroine and cannabis will tell you the same,,that to legalise it would only cause more problems i have lost a lot of school mates through the after effects of drugs and even those that survived now have no teeth no hair no job and are permanent bums,,why ,,, because the drugs have affected them mentally, some have even gone to the extreme of taking their own lives leaving good families behind ,, so sad but true,,so if anyone is trying to change my mind then just speak to someone a bit older than 30 ,, i think you will see they have a different opinion Apparently over a million tourist's per year who go to amsterdam just for the cannabis would suggest otherwise ! And just to prove your "opinion" is wrong the main reason given by the dutch government NOT to reform thier drug policy was because of the negative impact it would have on thier tourist industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 The point is, you are missing the point. It's so easy to say "let's tax it and make some money from an obvious problem". The question is how do you do it. It's clear that there is complete confusion based on folks not knowing what has been done so far. Holland is an example - it's still illegal at all levels but at some levels decriminalised. Portugal seem to have taken a similar approach but added in some extra layers to help treatment. I haven't got a clue what the US are up to and like prostitution, it's often legal to sell it but not solicit or buy it. In fact, is there anywhere that's made cannabis legal rather than decriminalised - rhetorical. As said above, there is a danger of sending the wrong message and the message is already muddled by tabloid journalism. So your point is taken but how would you do it? Sadly i dont have all the answers, What i do know is that we have a crumbling ecconomy which only looks to be getting worse, cannabis is just one of many factors that is a massive drain on the tax payer. I understand theres loads of people who know someone who's life has been affected but i do not aggree that my hard earned tax money should be paying for the aftermath of thier drug habit's, by taxing it in some form there would be more money available to run education/rehab project's which could only help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) taxing it in some form there would be more money available to run education/rehab project's which could only help. Not only would money be made, Billions would be saved from the associated policing. Billions which could be spent on NHS/Education/Rehab. Edited December 13, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 or you could make it a capital offence and stop it overnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 You can't simply tax it and think that will solve the problem. There will always have to be some form of control and as we see with Tamazipan and diazipan, there will still be a black market. The control aspect is the most interesting part of this debate. If cannabis was to be legalised in some controlled way then it would create massive profits for the lucky drugs companies and agencies chosen to manufacrture and distribute drugs. Those profits would go to private industry, not the public sector. The public purse would not benefit as much as the private sector by a long way. The profits the drugs companies make will be diametrically opposite to the losses in the pub trade. Many more pubs will close because of increeased drug related competition. What would change on a day to day basis is that drug users would be more open about their use and less wary of being caught. Druggies would be in public circulation far more than they are today. What won't change is the illegal use of grugs - kids sniffing Ketamine, heroin users clogging up the hospitals and making the life of needy patients hell. People growing their own because they can grow it and sell it cheaper than Beardy Branson can sell the legal stuff at Virgin Drugs. Forget the £££ millions saved in policing because the majority of that money goes in enforcing hard drugs like cocaine and heroin, not cannabis. And there will still be need to keep an eye of illegal cannabis consumption and those profiting from the legalising of some drugs will make sure that the police are enforcing the black market so as to protect their profits. That is what this debate is really about. Money! Big money being made by private companies on the back of so called reforms that will not stand scrutiny. There is no evidence anywhere that legalising drugs has caused benefits to society as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Private companies will still be paying tax, as will the user, which is better than current which is 0 tax. I (and many other anti-prohibitionists) support legalisation (Or at least decimalization) of "hard" drugs so the millions (Think its billions?)will be saved. heroin users clogging up hospitals? That's happening right now yet decimalization + education/rehab has shown to decrease heroin use (And HIV) and increase rehab (Portugal). I would much rather big money be in tax paying companies than organised crime, lesser of two evils. There is no evidence anywhere that legalising drugs has caused benefits to society as a whole. You are right (though one could look at USA and Alcohol prohabition), But there is evidence more liberal laws ie decimalization + education/rehab has caused benefits, And legalisation would have the social benefits of decimalization coupled with economic benefits. People also need to remember no logical person should be calming legalisation will solve all problems. We (Should) be claiming it will be better comparatively speaking to what we have now.. a failed system causing problems most people complain about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Private companies will still be paying tax, as will the user, which is better than current which is 0 tax. I (and many other anti-prohibitionists) support legalisation (Or at least decimalization) of "hard" drugs so the millions (Think its billions?)will be saved. heroin users clogging up hospitals? That's happening right now yet decimalization + education/rehab has shown to decrease heroin use (And HIV) and increase rehab (Portugal). I would much rather big money be in tax paying companies than organised crime, lesser of two evils. You are right (though one could look at USA and Alcohol prohabition), But there is evidence more liberal laws ie decimalization + education/rehab has caused benefits, And legalisation would have the social benefits of decimalization coupled with economic benefits. People also need to remember no logical person should be calming legalisation will solve all problems. We (Should) be claiming it will be better comparatively speaking to what we have now.. a failed system causing problems most people complain about! Not to mention the current system is a %100 financial burden on the state any amount of tax revenue would only offset some of that burden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Indeed, its not a perfect solution but nothing will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Private companies will still be paying tax, as will the user, which is better than current which is 0 tax. I (and many other anti-prohibitionists) support legalisation (Or at least decimalization) of "hard" drugs so the millions (Think its billions?)will be saved. heroin users clogging up hospitals? That's happening right now yet decimalization + education/rehab has shown to decrease heroin use (And HIV) and increase rehab (Portugal). I would much rather big money be in tax paying companies than organised crime, lesser of two evils. This whole debate is only being given consideration because large companies will make £££ millions out of the scheme. It will not stop the cannabis black market, it will not stop heroin and cocaine abuse and it will not stop hospitals being overloaded with heroin users who have self-inflicted illneses. It is that which clogs up the NHS along with the crazy schemes whereby addicts get methadone injections at your loca pharmacy. That won't stop either. Not to mention the current system is a %100 financial burden on the state any amount of tax revenue would only offset some of that burden. So is burglary. Would you like us to legalise that too to save the State some coffers? As above; the biggest drain on the UK from a drugs point of view is enforcing and treating those who use the hard stuff, not cannabis. If the government put as much money into criminalising addicts instead of keeping them out of the courts and prison with soft, crazy re-habilitation schemes there would be a significant drop in usage and the remaining usage would go further underground and not be as much of a problem to general society. The government talks about cracking down on addicts - when was the last time you saw a prosecution of an addict who is taking up a valuable hospital bed? In 25 years of policing I have never known anyone face signicant punishment for failing a drugs test in custody. They just go on another expensive micky mouse scheme that lines the pocket of counsellors and empties the public purse. I was dealing with the effects of drugs on society when gazzthompson was in nappies. I didn't learn about it at college. I've seen the devastatin with causes to society first hand. The only reason they are considereing this is that the likes of Beardy Branson will make a lot of money out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) The aim isn't to stop anything you mentioned, That's never going to happen, Its to reduce it (And save billions, and increase civil liberties). . The only reason they are considereing this is that the likes of Beardy Branson will make a lot of money out of it. You got me, Branson will leave his money to me in a will so i want him to have more money... Ah yes, the "crack" down argument. Has that ever worked in any country ever? The argument falls on its *** when you admit we are getting soft on drugs and usage is falling. Seems soft works! Edited December 13, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumbrian shooter Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) and i was told by my FAO to hold a firearms licence / sgc the applicant has to be squeeky clean some people on this thread have certainly changed my opinion on that one,,i have read some bull but what some people are saying is unreal,,, just as a point i,ve been to amsterdam on a few occasions and not once did i go there to use drugs and neither did anyone i travelled with,, my buddy,s brother in law has lived there since 1978 and anyone carrying over 1 ounce is deemed as being a dealer and is treated accordingly by the law,, i also know a couple of guy,s that went there on a stag weekend and non where interested in using drugs , they went for the night life and the red light district legalising cannabis in this country is not going to happen in my lifetime thank god and to suggest all people under the age of 30 go there just for drugs is bordering on insane, people who were around to see the damage done since the late 70,s through heroine and cannabis will tell you the same,,that to legalise it would only cause more problems i have lost a lot of school mates through the after effects of drugs and even those that survived now have no teeth no hair no job and are permanent bums,,why ,,, because the drugs have affected them mentally, some have even gone to the extreme of taking their own lives leaving good families behind ,, so sad but true,,so if anyone is trying to change my mind then just speak to someone a bit older than 30 ,, i think you will see they have a different opinion well said mate ive seen what drugs do to people and im totaly and utterly against the insane thought of legalising cannabis! its a joke that people on this forum think its ok to have it made legal! WHAT ON EARTH are you people thinking! It will damage this country even more than it is already! Would u feel safe having god nos who walking round getting hi on the streets ect! What kind of example is that to set to kids (that its ok to take drugs is what)! money this and tax that is all i keep reading, were has the pride gone, this is our country and our home, we should be fighting the battle to clean up our streets, not throwing fuel on the fire! Edited December 13, 2012 by cumbrian shooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) I don't think you understand the arguments for legalisation. Its not suggesting a free for all drug use whistle dancing in money, i cant be bothered to say them again. And i hate the kids argument, State shouldn't be involved because of bad parenting. Edited December 13, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 can't you and Lumpy start your own campaign on the benefits gazz as it appears you are the only two who believe it will do any good. Might be a good opportunity to meet up for a good smoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 This whole debate is only being given consideration because large companies will make £££ millions out of the scheme. It will not stop the cannabis black market, it will not stop heroin and cocaine abuse and it will not stop hospitals being overloaded with heroin users who have self-inflicted illneses. It is that which clogs up the NHS along with the crazy schemes whereby addicts get methadone injections at your loca pharmacy. That won't stop either. So is burglary. Would you like us to legalise that too to save the State some coffers? As above; the biggest drain on the UK from a drugs point of view is enforcing and treating those who use the hard stuff, not cannabis. If the government put as much money into criminalising addicts instead of keeping them out of the courts and prison with soft, crazy re-habilitation schemes there would be a significant drop in usage and the remaining usage would go further underground and not be as much of a problem to general society. The government talks about cracking down on addicts - when was the last time you saw a prosecution of an addict who is taking up a valuable hospital bed? In 25 years of policing I have never known anyone face signicant punishment for failing a drugs test in custody. They just go on another expensive micky mouse scheme that lines the pocket of counsellors and empties the public purse. I was dealing with the effects of drugs on society when gazzthompson was in nappies. I didn't learn about it at college. I've seen the devastatin with causes to society first hand. The only reason they are considereing this is that the likes of Beardy Branson will make a lot of money out of it. OK we'll go with your plan Mr Camoron (clearly you must be related) And bury our heads in the sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) can't you and Lumpy start your own campaign on the benefits gazz as it appears you are the only two who believe it will do any good. Might be a good opportunity to meet up for a good smoke No need, movement is already there. maybe you can campaign against it with the rest of the drug dealers, gotta protect your crop! Edited December 13, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 can't you and Lumpy start your own campaign on the benefits gazz as it appears you are the only two who believe it will do any good. Might be a good opportunity to meet up for a good smoke And all you do is try to accuse people of smoking it You know what they say about people in glass house's alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 No need, movement is already there. maybe you can campaign against it with the rest of the drug dealers, gotta protect your crop! I had more movement this morning at about 7.30am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I had more movement this morning at about 7.30am Helping your uncle jack again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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