American gun laws

[ordnance]

Partly tongue in cheek, it is a fact that a legally held pistol could not be used in the uk or an assault rifle for that matter. Do not loose sight of the fact that most of the US massacres were committed using legally held firearms. I could go on for a week discussing how we could ease restrictions in the UK but it will never happen.

 

 

 

Handguns are not banned in all of the UK.

 

 

Posters are talking about gun laws in America as if they are all the same. Don't forget that different states have different gun laws some stricter than others.

 

Some states limit magazines to 10 rds cap there is no limit here.

Edited December 16, 2012 by ordnance

[Scully]

it is a fact that a legally held pistol could not be used in the uk or an assault rifle for that matter.

Sorry,but like your previous post to this one,I don't think you've thought it through properly before posting.It isn't a 'fact' at all.There are still plenty of handguns in circulation in this country,both legally and illegally held.It's also not too long ago that a police patrol car (in Preston if I remember correctly?)following a suspicious vehicle was attacked by the vehicles occupant with an assault rifle.

I think you'll agree a semi-automatic .22rf rifle in the confines of a classroom doesn't even bear thinking about.

[JonathanL]

Perhaps - but the US Constitution only has legally binding dominion in the US, and yet you'd struggle to use any airport in the Western world where this shoe removal scheme isn't in place.

 

Yes, the rest of the world would do it, the septics wouldn't if it were constitutionally protected. Seeing as the point we are discussing is the USA then that is a very relevant point.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Handguns are not banned in all of the UK.

 

They aren't actually 'banned' anywhere in the UK. There are so many exemptions that, in effect, the only thing you can't do with one is target shoot!

 

J.

[BerettaEELL]

 

 

There are plenty of legally held pistols in the UK that could be used criminally if the holder was so minded. There are exemptions to the handgun ban. The question that needs addressing is why people commit these acts in the first place. Whether they do it with a legal or illegal gun is neither here nor there. School shootings are an American speciality. Copycat crimes almost certainly, but why would anyone copy such a crime? Mental illness is a catch-all get out clause. Something in social democratic societies is producing and allowing to proliferate a diseased branch of its citizenry that acts against nature.

Nutters may well be picking up guns because there are too many to hand, but there are also it seems to me an unnaturally large supply of nutters. We are creating the problem from both ends, we will not solve it from only one.

 

Come on, we shouldn't forget that there are more than 300,000000 legally held firearms in the US. Three hundred million now argue that one!!! ;-)

[ordnance]

They aren't actually 'banned' anywhere in the UK. There are so many exemptions that, in effect, the only thing you can't do with one is target shoot

 

OK Take out the LBP-S how many are in circulation for humane dispatch very few i would think. The law didn't ban them but made it virtually imposable for shooters to get the fact that the Olympic pistol shooting team had to practice abroad shows how difficult they are to get.

 

You say they can only be used for target shooting that was always the case what else would you be using one for.

That's not correct either. Quote. Between 11,000 and 12,000 handguns are held by individuals in Northern Ireland for personal protection.

[HDAV]

The big difference in the US ownership is a right unless excluded there are restrictions (carrying in public etc) in the UK you need a govt sanctioned good reason and recreation isn't one. Transit between states is also far easier as stated the tightening of laws would not have helped in the current situation. The kid stole his parents legally owned guns thus commuting several offences.

 

 

The us has a different perspective on a lot of things and the obvious answer is normally a shutting the door after the horse has bolted rather than ensuring the door won't open accidentally.

[ordnance]

The big difference in the US ownership is a right unless excluded there are restrictions

 

I see what you are saying but if you if you have all the checks done and pass all the requirements you have a right to have a firearm. The police can't decide not to give you one because they don't like the look of you. PS As i have already said you can't talk about the gun laws in America as if they are all the same different states have different gun laws.

[Laird Lugton]

 

 

One thing is for sure, Obama wants to disarm the population so he will take this opportunity. A disarmed polulation is easier to control and that will be foremost in his mind with economic collapse a possibility.

 

Curlywurly cuckoo.......have you been to Oregon and smoked some weed?

[bedwards1966]

Partly tongue in cheek, it is a fact that a legally held pistol could not be used in the uk or an assault rifle for that matter. Do not loose sight of the fact that most of the US massacres were committed using legally held firearms. I could go on for a week discussing how we could ease restrictions in the UK but it will never happen.

 

Nonsense. It's far harder to legally get a handgun or semi auto center-fire here as target shooting is no longer considered a suitable reason, but it's still possible.

As well as not quite being banned they are very easy to get hold of illegally - as are all guns, which puts legislation into perspective. It controls the law abiding among us, it does nothing to stop criminals.

 

Even if handguns and semi auto center-fires aren't easily accessible, there are many other firearms that can be used as weapons. Take a semi shotgun with a 25 round magazine on, or a .22lr semi with a 25 round magazine on. Both can legally be owned, and both are potentially lethal if someone goes nuts - not much 'better' than anything that is unavailable.

Any shotgun or rifle has the potential to be used in these bad ways, making some hard to reach does almost nothing to prevent shootings, as the next best thing will be used.

[Laird Lugton]

 

As another post pointed to it working here after Dunblane ,, Not so,,, there are now more reported incidents with pistols , than when they were Legal??...

 

Yes but since Dunblane no one has gone into a school and started shooting children. I suspect a lot of reported crime involving pistols is crime/gang related and mostly on each other.

[HDAV]

I see what you are saying but if you if you have all the checks done and pass all the requirements you have a right to have a firearm. The police can't decide not to give you one because they don't like the look of you. PS As i have already said you can't talk about the gun laws in America as if they are all the same different states have different gun laws.

 

The big thing is here you need a reason there you don't........ That's the difference and its a huge one! I cant walk into a shop and buy a pistol or a rifle because i want one as i dont have good reason to get a Certificate. In the US i could. Now some states can say i cant carry it in public, have a 30 round mag but no where says i cant have one. As an adult with no criminal record or mental health issues.

 

 

Look at it this way:

 

Someone might go nuts with a gun and shoot a load of people how do we prevent this unlikely but feasible situation?

 

Option 1: Infringe the rights of every US citizen by banning private ownership of guns

 

Option 2: Limit the access of guns to people who are unlikely to go a killing spree

 

Option 3: Arm the law abiding so they have a chance to survive..........

 

"God made all men, Samuel Colt made them even" is the much loved us saying........ This is an idealogical issue not legislative, the us has gun control laws which should have prevented this. As did the UK before Hungerford, Dunblane and Whitehaven tragedies. COnsidering how strict our gun laws are we have still had quite a few...........

 

The UN stats are interesting....... http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html

 

Homicide by firearm per 100,000 population for the last 10 years been around

USA 3.8

Czech Republic 0.5

UK 0.1

Taiwan 0.8-0.6

Columbia 40-27

Canada 0.5-0.7 (similar laws to the US?)

Zambia 0.4-0.2

Switzerland 1.0-0.6

 

 

The variation behind the statistics is thought to be linked far more to Drugs than guns. Without a total ban on legally held firearms spree killings will happen the UK being probably the best example of this........

 

 

 

I would suggest it was the fault of the mother who raised the gunman and failed to secure her weapons to prevent him accessing them. Unpopular but i feel from the facts available the real issue. As a teacher (upstanding responsible member of the community one can only assume) she would have the guns she wanted however tight the controls were.

Edited December 16, 2012 by HDAV

[JonathanL]

OK Take out the LBP-S how many are in circulation for humane dispatch very few i would think. The law didn't ban them but made it virtually imposable for shooters to get the fact that the Olympic pistol shooting team had to practice abroad shows how difficult they are to get.

 

You say they can only be used for target shooting that was always the case what else would you be using one for.

That's not correct either. Quote. Between 11,000 and 12,000 handguns are held by individuals in Northern Ireland for personal protection.

 

No, you are mis-reading me. The only thing they can not be used for it target shooting. They can be possessed as tropies of war, for humane dispatch, for starting races at athletic meetings, under two exeptions contained in section 7 of the Act, and as exempt antiques.

 

The point I was making is that, in effect,. nothing has changed apart from the fact that you cannot have a pistol for target shooting. Every deer stalker could get anauthority for am otherwise banned pistol tomorrow. If they did so then that would probably bring the numbers of private individuals owning them back up to the level it was prior to 1997.

 

J.

[Catweazle]

Curlywurly cuckoo.......have you been to Oregon and smoked some weed?

 

No, but I have read all of this thread which means I don't quote statements that are acknowledged to be wrong.

[JonathanL]

The big difference in the US ownership is a right unless excluded there are restrictions (carrying in public etc) in the UK you need a govt sanctioned good reason and recreation isn't one. Transit between states is also far easier as stated the tightening of laws would not have helped in the current situation. The kid stole his parents legally owned guns thus commuting several offences.

 

 

The us has a different perspective on a lot of things and the obvious answer is normally a shutting the door after the horse has bolted rather than ensuring the door won't open accidentally.

 

Of course it is. Lots of people have firearms for target shooting and recreational deer stalking and pest control.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Yes but since Dunblane no one has gone into a school and started shooting children. I suspect a lot of reported crime involving pistols is crime/gang related and mostly on each other.

 

That doesn't prove that the legislation has actualy prevented it though. Either Bird or Moat could have done so, the fact that they didn't wasn't anything to do with legislation it was because they chose not to.

 

J.

[HDAV]

Of course it is. Lots of people have firearms for target shooting and recreational deer stalking and pest control.

 

J.

Perhaps poorly phrased i was talking about the ownership/possession being recreational rather than the activity being recreational

 

If you don't shoot at club regularly enough you can loose your ticket in the UK. As the good reason lapses (if target shooting was the reason) A big difference between Sec1 and sec 2 in the UK you can have a sec 2 for recreation (ownership for recreation rather than recreational use) you cant have a Sec 1 for the same reasons "because i want one"

 

Airsoft and sub 12 ft/lbs air can also be owned "because i want one" cartridge or powder burning handguns and rifles can't (except section 58 of course but you cant fire them)

Edited December 16, 2012 by HDAV

[JonathanL]

Perhaps poorly phrased i was talking about the ownership/possession being recreational rather than the activity being recreational

 

I fail to see your point.

 

J.

[HDAV]

I fail to see your point.

 

J.

 

I edited my post above to clarify the situation. In the UK you cannot own a handgun or rifle and ammunition (single powder burning projectile and rifled barrel) because you want to, you have to satisfy the "good reason clause"

 

 

TBH I'm completely lost on where i was going other than to say legislation is one possible solution to the problem of spree killings which hasnt worked in the UK so why will it work in the US?

[ordnance]

The point I was making is that, in effect,. nothing has changed apart from the fact that you cannot have a pistol for target shooting.

 

You can in this part of the UK.

[BerettaEELL]

I agree with a majority of the posts here, the whole issue boils down to nobody in the States being able to get any credible gun controls passed. Forget the UK we are not the issue at the moment. If you had just been told your kids had been murdered you would want something doing to stop this kind of thing, however the gun owners just keep harping on about the right to bear arms.

 

We all have guns (well most of us do). Go take a look at it long and hard and just think about what it is capable of, then try to imagine it in the hands of a nutter. My sons are 6 & 8 and it sends a shiver down my spine.

[HDAV]

Has anyone actually bothered to read the Connecticut gun control laws?

 

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/connecticut.aspx

 

http://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/law/firearms.htm

 

They do have them! And not so different to ours.... 5 year permits with exclusion lists

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Connecticut

 

These include:

• Criminal possession of a narcotic substance;
  
• Criminally negligent homicide;
  
• Assault in the third degree;
  
• Reckless endangerment in the first degree;
  
• Unlawful restraint in the second degree;
  
• Riot in the first degree;
  
• Stalking in the second degree;
  
• Has not been convicted as a delinquent for the commission of a serious juvenile offense;
  
• Has not been discharged from custody within the preceding twenty years after having been found not guilty of a crime by reason of mental disease or defect;
  
• Is not subject to a restraining or protective order issued by a court in a case involving the use, attempted use or threatened use of physical force against another person;
  
• Is not subject to a firearms seizure order issued for posing a risk of personal injury to self or others after a hearing; or
  
• Is not prohibited from possessing a firearm for having been adjudicated as a mentally incompetent under federal law.
  

[ordnance]

We all have guns (well most of us do). Go take a look at it long and hard and just think about what it is capable of, then try to imagine it in the hands of a nutter. My sons are 6 & 8 and it sends a shiver down my spine.

 

You said it yourself what firearms are capable of the logic of that is ban all firearms here as well as America.

Edited December 16, 2012 by ordnance

[BerettaEELL]

I know what my Beretta is capable of, I am also sane. I just feel terribly sorry for the poor families in the US who have suffered. Our laws are some of the toughest in the world and my point would reflect that, somebody in the States must impose some kinds of restrictions to reduce the likelihood of this happening again. I know that you cannot stop this kind of thing but at least try to do something.

 

Anybody have any ideas.....?

[HDAV]

 

Anybody have any ideas.....?

read the current restrictions! What if your lad grows up wrong and takes your keys steals your gun and goes on a rampage What then? As that's what happened the son of a legitimate owner took their guns and went on rampage killing both parents and a load of innocent kids as with all these cases there will be no trial, no explanation.

 

I don't mean to offend but if you feel so strongly about the law being the problem then hand in your guns for destruction and join the gun control network.......