Aaz Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Hi All Me and missus have been talking about getting another ESS, my current girl, Teasal, is 41/2 shes a pretty bitch and works really well, turns a deaf-un occasionally but thats my fault for letting her indoors take her out and run riot, I'm considering breeding from her as she's a massive part of the family and has such a good temperament but im concerned she maybe getting too old. What do you guys think and this isn't a financial thing, I'd love to have mother and daughter working together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Not too old in my opinion I bred my Lab last year at 4 years old for her first litter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 For a first litter its more likely you will have complications but doable. Big question is why - you can obviously buy a really well bred pup for your own needs once you do all the health tests and pay for a reasonable stud your well out of pocket. Don't breed from a bitch just because you like her or because you think its worthwhile monetarily - its not! If you can buy better you should Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee-kinsman Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 I think if your genuinely pleased with her working ability and your not just feeling sentimental, she has a good working pedigree, and you want to keep a pup for yourself then fair play to you. 41/2 isn't to old though in my opinion she does need to be pupped at your next opportunity. ATB, Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 For a first litter its more likely you will have complications but doable. Big question is why - you can obviously buy a really well bred pup for your own needs once you do all the health tests and pay for a reasonable stud your well out of pocket. Don't breed from a bitch just because you like her or because you think its worthwhile monetarily - its not! If you can buy better you should Can I ask why there would be complications? Genuine question as I would be wanting to breed from my Springer bitch in the next year or so. She will be 4 in May. I have absolutely no financial reason for breeding from her, I just would want to get a pup from her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 4 1/2 is not too old, even for a maiden bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 It's not just that you will get a pup from the litter because you love her, but you will be putting out there any number of other pups which will not necessarily have any other merit than being the sibling of the pup you retain, and then some of those will be bred from perhaps for similar reasons and you soon have a large bunch of progeny out there with no particular proven working merit and with no health tested credentials. That is not a great service to the breed. Whereas those painstaking breeders, who do all the health tests and select from proven working lines to enhance and retain the working aptitude of the breed find their efforts undermined. If you are going to do it, at least ensure that the sire is sound, health tested and from working lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 It's not just that you will get a pup from the litter because you love her, but you will be putting out there any number of other pups which will not necessarily have any other merit than being the sibling of the pup you retain, and then some of those will be bred from perhaps for similar reasons and you soon have a large bunch of progeny out there with no particular proven working merit and with no health tested credentials. That is not a great service to the breed. Whereas those painstaking breeders, who do all the health tests and select from proven working lines to enhance and retain the working aptitude of the breed find their efforts undermined. If you are going to do it, at least ensure that the sire is sound, health tested and from working lines. Those are my thoughts. As for age between 2-3 is ideal and it gives the bitch time to show her merit, 4 1/2 turns to 5 and that is getting a bit old for a first litter - that's my opinion. Its ok if she has already had a litter but she has not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markr Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 between the age of 4-6 is a good age to breed as they have had chance to prove their ability over several seasons they are mature at this age to rear a litter to it's best. thier is no more risk of breeding a 4 1/2 year old bitch than there is of breeding of a younger bitch. if youre unsure speak with youre vet but im sure apart from the normal "there are too many pups being bred talk" they will give you the green light on her age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaz Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 It's not just that you will get a pup from the litter because you love her, but you will be putting out there any number of other pups which will not necessarily have any other merit than being the sibling of the pup you retain, and then some of those will be bred from perhaps for similar reasons and you soon have a large bunch of progeny out there with no particular proven working merit and with no health tested credentials. That is not a great service to the breed. Whereas those painstaking breeders, who do all the health tests and select from proven working lines to enhance and retain the working aptitude of the breed find their efforts undermined. If you are going to do it, at least ensure that the sire is sound, health tested and from working lines. That's a bit 'chuffing' presumptuous!! She has a long line of FTCH, OFTC, FTW, 45 in total between Sire and Dam. This would be her first litter hence my reason for asking advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 That's a bit 'chuffing' presumptuous!! She has a long line of FTCH, OFTC, FTW, 45 in total between Sire and Dam. This would be her first litter hence my reason for asking advice Yeh I have to agree. If I want to breed from my dog, that is my choice and as long as I am not putting her health at risk then I don't see the problem. My Springer bitch is from good working stock and she is a great rough shooting dog; I would be breeding her with another dog from good working stock, to provide further rough shooting dogs. I also wouldn't be selling any of the pups, I know that several of my shooting mates would want one of the offspring to use as a rough shooting dog. Does everyone assume that you need to have dozens of FTCH, FTW etc in the breed to provide a dog which is going to be a very good working companion for life? If they do I think you need to get off your high horse and realise that not everyone can afford to spend extortionate amounts of money on a dog that could end up being gun shy. Thanks for the replies, I am glad the dog will not be too old to breed off next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 IMO there is too much emphasis placed on health testing breeds that don't carry inherent health issues and not enough focus on breeding from decent dogs! No doubt I will be quoted statistics and reasons why ESS should be health tested for XYZ, I prefer to base my judgement on what I see in front of me and the fact that in spite of being involved with several shoots I simply don't see spaniels in the field with hereditary conditions. At best I hear anecdotes referring to a friend of a friend. That said, there is no excuse for adding puppies to the [over] stock that is already available unless you have 1) a dog worth breeding from and 2) a reasonable chance of homing the pups with handlers or families who understand the needs of the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 IMO there is too much emphasis placed on health testing breeds that don't carry inherent health issues and not enough focus on breeding from decent dogs! No doubt I will be quoted statistics and reasons why ESS should be health tested for XYZ, I prefer to base my judgement on what I see in front of me and the fact that in spite of being involved with several shoots I simply don't see spaniels in the field with hereditary conditions. At best I hear anecdotes referring to a friend of a friend. That said, there is no excuse for adding puppies to the [over] stock that is already available unless you have 1) a dog worth breeding from and 2) a reasonable chance of homing the pups with handlers or families who understand the needs of the breed. Thanks for the reply mate. The thing is I would have no problem finding homes for any pups I breed, I wouldn't breed from my spaniel to try and earn a few pound from selling pups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaz Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 I didn't want to advertise the fact that her pedigree has a British and Irish FTC winners and her grand-sire was Clarburgh Art, as I see this as having no relevance to my original post, this makes no difference to find out whether she was too old or not. As said, people get to hung up on pedigree lines when all they're looking for in a dog is a good family/rough shooting dog, I have no intentions of entering into FT. Cheers for the replies though gents and I will take on board all the advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 I didn't want to advertise the fact that her pedigree has a British and Irish FTC winners and her grand-sire was Clarburgh Art, as I see this as having no relevance to my original post, this makes no difference to find out whether she was too old or not. As said, people get to hung up on pedigree lines when all they're looking for in a dog is a good family/rough shooting dog, I have no intentions of entering into FT. Cheers for the replies though gents and I will take on board all the advice Well if you didn't say then presumption must follow. Health tested? Presume away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaz Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Well if you didn't say then presumption must follow. Health tested? Presume away... Presumption must follow , my ar$e. Her pedigree has no bearing on my question whether she is old enough or not, your post had no advice regarding the question and just appears to be derogative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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