New rifle (.308win) - Advice needed from the gestalt...

[Wookie]

I've put an application in for a .308win rifle with the initial requirement listed as target shooting, specifically out to 1000m. I may eventually get round to taking my DSC1 and then start using it for stalking, but that's a far future aim, target shooting is the primary driver for this rifle right now.

 

I had originally been looking at a 26" barrelled Remington 700 Police as my weapon of choice, but since then I've been advised that the Howa 1500 Varmint (24" barrel) is an equally good choice for my use case and has the advantage of being cheaper and less likely to need initial modifications.

 

Two choices was bad enough, but someone then pointed me at the Riflecraft website and suggested I look at the Kimber 8400 rifles, specifically the Police Tactical version, as they were "just like the Remington 700 Police, but with all the custom bits already done). That appealed a lot but, after talking to Bentley there, I got sent photos of the rifle he had just built from the action/barrel of a Police Tactical and a lot of custom bits that he had in the workshop. It's a thing of beauty, but is easily more expensive than buying two new 700s. I could afford it (just) but it would leave me with sod all money for a decent scope and zero savings. Right now, I'm not sure I could do that.

 

So, my question is: Given the use case (1000m rifle shooting) and the calibre (.308win) what would be the best rifle for me? Choosing from the three above is good, but other suggestions are very welcome.

[kent]

Having owned, shot and competed with a Remmington Police, before and after modification I should say the best cheapest buy from your list. However I would take that route today no way at all they are too dear today to throw half the bits away! My advice is go for it and look towards AI or RPA perhaps. If you want the best factory class rifle these give it you. The savage FTR is also a great choice (and a large amount cheaper) and single shot will be more ridged and shoot tighter- the savage can actually win factory class in b/rest and doesn't cost as much. Also coming right within weight limitations for FTR events (the event it was built specifically for). All these guns are total pants for stalking though ok for high seat or other static deer murder- quite simply too heavy to slog about and poor for off hand shooting. Research Riflecraft carefully on the net before you give them any money!

[Savage10FP]

Go for the Savage, although I am biased I have the Savage 10FP in a choate sniper stock, nice 1-10 rifle twist for those heavier bullets. Plus the Savage 12BVSS in.223 in a choate varmint stock. MOA rails are easily available. Love them to bits with excellent trigger pulls

[Rem223]

The Savage is not the best looking rig, but I have read a lot of articles on how well they shoot out of the box and the prices are relatively good. The Remington is a good rifle, but quality control is not what it once was and I have seen some real horrors that should have been picked up at the factory but made it all the way to the retailer.

[Rogc]

I recently purchased a How 308 off a member on this site. Pros, cheap, great trigger, accurate and easily modified. Cons standard stock is a bit rubbery. Im very happy with the rifle,mine is the varmint heavy barreled version. Im now considering a non heavy barreled 223.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Rogc

[Gimlet]

It sounds like target shooting is the real task and stalking a vague aspiration. In which case don't bother trying to bridge both camps, as Kent says a dedicated target rifle makes a miserable stalking tool. Get a Sako TRG and be done.

[Wookie]

I would love a TRG, but the outright cost of such a thing (and the glass to go with it) would be more than I can justify. The same thing with, say, an AI-based rifle or a new/nearly new RPA.

 

I'd not really considered Savage (saw their rifles in .17 a long while ago and was not convinced I liked the trigger), but I will have another look at them and see what I think.

 

As for a heavy rifle and stalking, that's not an issue for me. I'm used to running around ranges and training areas with 5 kilo rifles, so using a target-ish rifle for stalking is not going to cause me much in the way of hassle.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Wookie

[kent]

I would love a TRG, but the outright cost of such a thing (and the glass to go with it) would be more than I can justify. The same thing with, say, an AI-based rifle or a new/nearly new RPA.

 

I'd not really considered Savage (saw their rifles in .17 a long while ago and was not convinced I liked the trigger), but I will have another look at them and see what I think.

 

As for a heavy rifle and stalking, that's not an issue for me. I'm used to running around ranges and training areas with 5 kilo rifles, so using a target-ish rifle for stalking is not going to cause me much in the way of hassle.

It is a problem you just don't know it yet, stalking in woodland in over 90% off hand shooting, on the hill you need to consider how heavy your lunch is let alone be carrying a 16lb plus gun!. The Savage FTR is made for your purposes if your on a budget no good trying to compete without a good scope at 1000 yds though so make sure and allow for a NF etc.

[Gimlet]

As for a heavy rifle and stalking, that's not an issue for me. I'm used to running around ranges and training areas with 5 kilo rifles, so using a target-ish rifle for stalking is not going to cause me much in the way of hassle.

 

The problem with using target rifles in the field isn't so much outright weight as balance. I'm a fan of varminters but they are designed to be carried for hunting. They tend to have heavy stocks, especially if timber, which distributes the weight, and long but not excessively long barrels. Also I don't like moderators. A 24" or 26" heavy barrel with weighty stock and no mod is a heavy piece but it sits comfortably enough on the shoulder. Get a 28 or 30" target barrel, stick on a moderator and a comparatively light sythetic stock and its hopeless. Worse again if you've added a bipod. If you carry it barrel up it constantly tries to rotate on your shoulder and lie horizontal and unless your 7" tall there's no way you can carry it barrel down. The muzzle gets snagged in every branch and you can't shoot it without sticks.

A mate of mine has a TRG. We tried going stalking with it once. In theory its ideal for high seat shoooting, but trying to get into the high seat was like Laural and Hardy trying to get a plank into a model T. You can't even use it in a car without putting out a window or ripping the head lining.

[Wookie]

Heh! I'm not far off 7 foot!

 

The plan was to limit the barrel length to 26" if I could, only going shorter if there was a compelling reason to do so. Staying in the 24-26" range would give me the best flexibility when it came to loads and range, but would reduce my ability to go HME and thus limit my range days.

 

Who stocks Savage in the UK? Guntrader's not listing any FT/R models and I'd like more info on them if I can get it. The manufacturer's website's ok, I guess, but I'd like some UK pricing to look at.

[roger3167]

It sounds like target shooting is the real task and stalking a vague aspiration. In which case don't bother trying to bridge both camps, as Kent says a dedicated target rifle makes a miserable stalking tool. Get a Sako TRG and be done.

Agree with the TRG used on range fantastic to shoot, cheeper option could be Tika T3 Tactical, excelent accuracy straight out of the box

[Wookie]

T3 Tacticals appear to be bloody expensive and hard to come by as well, which is probably to be expected for a rifle in the quality end of the market.

 

All I really want is a rifle with a 24"+ barrel that has a stock which I can adjust to about 15" of pull that will shove a bullet down the range at MOA or better at 1000m without burning out quickly. Hopefully for less than a grand. I really can't afford the 3k I've seen TRGs up for on guntrader. The wife would seriously castrate me if I did that.

[seeker]

Have you had a browse of the online UK based 'Target Shooter Magazine'??

Several articles on Long Range rifles, kit and shooting in back issues and plenty of links ...

Sorry but don't have a link ...

But you may need a new plan to avoid domestic castigation ...

Edited February 21, 2013 by seeker

[seeker]

'fister'

Well, im glad someone reads targetshooter :-) .... and worth every penny too.

Somewhere on the net there's a thread from 'Laurie' about building an affordable club l/r target rifle based on a Howa .... can't recall where but it made sense and might fit OPs spec sheet snd budget?

Edited February 21, 2013 by seeker

[kent]

T3 Tacticals appear to be bloody expensive and hard to come by as well, which is probably to be expected for a rifle in the quality end of the market.

 

All I really want is a rifle with a 24"+ barrel that has a stock which I can adjust to about 15" of pull that will shove a bullet down the range at MOA or better at 1000m without burning out quickly. Hopefully for less than a grand. I really can't afford the 3k I've seen TRGs up for on guntrader. The wife would seriously castrate me if I did that.

I couldn't describe the Tikka as the quality end of the market regards target work, acquaint yourself with the disapline some more before you take the plunge

[Wookie]

Fister, I could probably do with having a chat at some point. Can you drop me a PM?

 

At this point, it seems like my choices boil down to two:

 

1. Off the shelf "cheap" rifle with pedigree that can be modified in the fullness of time

2. Custom expensive rifle from the off.

 

Purely from looking at my current cash reserve, no. 1 is looking top right now with Remington, Howa and Savage looking likely as options. I think I shoudl find somewhere that has examples of all three in stock and have a serious look at them. Anyone know someplace near Cambridge that stocks all three? I'm going to give Edgar Brothers a call later to have a chat, but I have some spare time this weekend to go looking.

[Wookie]

Cheers for that. Watch out for a mail at some point this afternoon. Or later if I get run over when I am jogging home.

[Gimlet]

Went down the range yesterday with my mate and had a bang with his TRG. We were only shooting at 300 yds, but by God those rifles are good! We kept shooting the red shot markers off. They must have run out of wire pins in the end because they stuck up red patching spots instead and my mate was shooting those out as well.

You have to get one of these. Just sell a kidney or something.

[Wookie]

What? I only have two kidneys and I need both of them!

 

I would dearly love a TRG. It was the first rifle I saw that I _wanted_, but it is just far too pricey for me. Right now, I'm thinking of getting a Remmy 700 SPS Varmint with a 26" tube and shooting that for a while with a heavily modified/bodged standard stock. Then, when I have saved up the money, I'll get another stock that I won't have to bodge.

 

Another idea would have been to buy a Howa 1500 varmint action and barrel only, (cheap-ish) then buy a third party stock with a long enough pull for me. However, I'm still drawn down to the route of the 26" tube for the longer range shooting and there's nothing wrong with the Remmy 700 action. The only downside is the price premium for the Remmington. Hence the cheaper route for the Varmint barrel than the Police option.

[seeker]

Again browsing several write-ups in back issues of T/Shooter there's an interesting combo of the of something like the Howa barreled action in a Joe West made-to fit-you choice of stock. Then a future option to rebarrel the Howa with whatever you need?

Price wise could be a renal saver?

[Dekers]

Wookie

 

Where do you stand with FAC at the moment, do you have existing rifles and target experience or is this all a new venture?

 

How serious do you want to get about target?

 

I get the impression you simply aren't sure what you want to do, or the future.

 

You can have plenty of fun and do OK at 1000 yards with a bog standard Rem 700 (and others), if you want to get serious you will have to up the game big time on rifle, glass, etc, and weight comes into that, I have never known anyone take a True, long range target rifle stalking, it is simply a non starter.

 

If you are new to this then I would strongly suggest you visit a club, have a chat and possibly even try and use some other people rifles, failing all else buy a USED Rem 700 (or similar) and have a go. If you think this game is for you then you can easily sell the rifle for little loss and start seriously investing. Spend a fortune of serious Target tools up front and you WILL lose a lot if you don't take to the sport, also starting in this fashion will build your knowledge far more towards what you want/suits you when you do start pouring money into target equipment.!

 

Just another view!

[kent]

Dekers has touched on a point its a waste of time shooting 1000 yds with factory ammo. A std factory gun can put you in the running if you keep it in "factory class" although you will have few to compete against so it might be a case of hollow victories

[Wookie]

That's not quite true Dekers... I know what I want from a rifle, I'm just presented with a lot of choice and some fairly hefty limiting factors.

 

As a quick run down, I've had a FAC for 5 years and am applying for a variation/grant for a .308 right now. I've been a member of a longer range target club for about two/three years and have shot out to 1000m with them over that time with other people's rifles. Alas, despite what some people on here think, my .17HMR just won't go out that far!

 

As for shooting experience, I've been shooting since I was 13 and have gone from .22 all the way up to 45/70 in that time. As a part-time soldier, I get to shoot a lot of 5.56 and 9mm on both normal ranges and the more entertaining ones. I am also a qualified military shooting coach and RCO.

 

Fun in shooting is good. If it's not fun, you don't want to do it and my personal opinion is that even when it is windy, raining and freezing cold, a bad day on the range is _still_ better than a good day in the office. However, I take shooting pretty seriously and I am trying to make my longer range shooting better. I want to be able to accurately shoot to that distance because that is what my club shoots up to. I would dearly love to be able to go mad and buy a TRG or similar out and out longe range gun, but I do have financial constraints, so I am looking to buy something that will allow me to shoot competitively without breaking the bank, hence the looking at rifles that will work out of the box, but which I can choose to modify as bits wear out, or as I get the finances to change.

 

The ammunition is a whole new area of concern. One thing at a time though, rifle first, but I had already pretty much consigned myself to handloading in the future for the longer ranges.

[Gimlet]

Another possibility, if you can find one is a Ruger VT. 26" barrel, laminate stock. I say if you can find one because I tried to buy one as a stalking/informal target rifle and found that getting a new order out of Ruger was next to impossible. I gave up in the end. But while I was looking into it I couldn't find a bad word said about the new VTs, so at £950 new I thought it worth a punt.

[Mr_Logic]

I could go on all night so I will try not to...

 

Long range stuff = long barrel. Deer stalking = short barrel. Velocity for long range stuff and pointability for deer.

 

Better off not trying to do both with one gun.

 

Do not get a Ruger VT - they are dreadful. I had one for a while and the barrel is too light, and too rubbish for proper target work.

 

Remington 700 Police for me - when you decide to take it seriously they can be tweaked and turned into a pretty decent gun, and they're OK out of the box. Certainly, it might well shoot the 1/2 MOA you'll need. Howa isn't bad but the Remington will be better.

 

Tikka action is OK but needs work for other things.

 

I now shoot two Savages, one in 223 and one in 308, and they both shoot 1K no problems. Both have the 30" barrel ideally needed. My 308 is a Broughton barrel, but the 223 is factory action and barrel.