243 vs 308 Land Deemed Suitable - Help please!

[jonnys]

Hi folks

 

Am after a bit of advice and hopefully some reassurance.

 

I have passed my deer stalker 1 and just started studying for my level 2. I'm doing all my training at the BASC Kings forest scheme.

 

I'm not from a shooting background and so have had to work really hard over the past few years since I started shooting to find land and get permission. I've been doing pest control for a farmer land for a couple of years, and he has just given me permission to cull some of the deer that are on his land.

 

I have gone for a 308 as her has reds on there as does the BASC Kings forest scheme, so want a calire that is capable of humanely dispatching these.

 

I have just put in for my variation on my FAC and spoke to the police today, alls well and they are going to issue a 308 for use at BASC, during our conversation I thought I just check and see if the farm I have the new stalking land I have secured is ok for a 308, the police advised that it's already been looked at for a 243 and they were fine with that, but they'd need to check again and agree a 308. They didn't say it was a problem, just that they'd need to check it and approve a 308 as it's never been checked for that just 243.

 

So my question is - if it's ok for a 243, please tell me they'll grant a 308 on the same land, as I've ordered my 308 and pick it up at the wknd. My belief is that it's the shooter who needs to be safe, and if you're unsafe with a 243 or a 308 it doesn't make any difference as both have the same potential to do damage/injury.

 

Be grateful for you opinions/thoughts and hopefully some reassurance!

 

Many thanks, Jonny

[TIGHTCHOKE]

They should do, but as with everything it will be down to someones opinion!

[Redgum]

It should be fine but the police can sometimes have some strange ideas but you have to remind them of such things as highseats which can be installed for safetey, which ever calibre. Another thing that will come into play is what is on the land ie species, some rookie police officers will think 243 will be fine as its legal for all deer species with the correct bullet. Some forces are much more educated, especially in areas where deer have been present for many years. My FEO had no problem with 308 as a deer calibre for Fallow ( though I needed boar as well). Though this next statement will cause a storm as the calibre is capable of killing all UK species stone dead, 243 is entry level calibre for all deer bigger than munties and CWD. For me 308 is a very useful as it has such a range of bullet weights and there will never be any issues with bullet energy legality wise, even if you chop the barrel a bit.

[kent]

Little practical difference, its like taking HMR and .22 wmr . if you like, no shot should be taken with one that wouldn't with another. Max speeds and bullets 125-150 in my experience give the slight margin on safety (but its very slight) Yet 150 up and slower damage less meat- there shouldn't be an issue if there is BASC should help coz the cops will be talking rubbish and be unable to defend such a decision

[Elk hunter]

Little practical difference, its like taking HMR and .22 wmr . if you like, no shot should be taken with one that wouldn't with another. Max speeds and bullets 125-150 in my experience give the slight margin on safety (but its very slight) Yet 150 up and slower damage less meat- there shouldn't be an issue if there is BASC should help coz the cops will be talking rubbish and be unable to defend such a decision

Really what a load of rubbish! 17 hmr is a 17/20gr bullet, a 22 wmr is 40+ gr bullet. There is a massive difference in energy dumped when the bullet hits its quarry.

.243 max weight 100 gr on its limit verses a 308 max weight of 200 gr bullet

243 with a light bullet will fragment where as a med range 150 gr 308 may not.

It is very common to use 308 in heavy wood land as is does not deflect or fragment when it hits a little brash where as the 243 is not suitable for those sorts of conditions. Each calibre has its own ups and downs so you can't compare them the way you state

Andrew

[kent]

Really what a load of rubbish! 17 hmr is a 17/20gr bullet, a 22 wmr is 40+ gr bullet. There is a massive difference in energy dumped when the bullet hits its quarry.

.243 max weight 100 gr on its limit verses a 308 max weight of 200 gr bullet

243 with a light bullet will fragment where as a med range 150 gr 308 may not.

It is very common to use 308 in heavy wood land as is does not deflect or fragment when it hits a little brash where as the 243 is not suitable for those sorts of conditions. Each calibre has its own ups and downs so you can't compare them the way you state

Andrew

I strongly dispute that which you state as fact. I did use the word "practical" show me a shot that can safely be taken with a HMR that cannot with a WMR. Heavy bullets and brush is BS that has been spouted, having seen heavy bullets deflected serious amounts in the past personally. A 150 grn bullet traveling at 2800 fps is more likely to carry after hitting a stone or track etc than a 100 grn one at 3000 fps that I grant you on percentage wise but the fact is neither shot is safe and shouldn't have been taken in the first place and likewise a deer behind any cover should never be attempted end of regardless ! Do you understand "practical" ?

[Dekers]

If they refuse a .308 but are ok with a .243 their reasons will make an interesting read.

 

I'm still a little confused about your OP, how have you got a .308 granted, is this simply on the basis of BASC Kings forest scheme, do you shoot there?

 

Perhaps I missed something! :hmm:

[jonnys]

Hi folks

 

Many thanks for your responses so far. To answer some questions:

 

Redgum - yes, I've got reds on there, and that's one of the main reasons I'm going to use to support my request for it to be certified for 308 use. Oh, and completely agree on the calibre, not that I've got my experience like you guys, but I couldn;t see the point in getting a 243 when I knew I was going to shoot reds and fallow at some point in the future, I like the idea that the 308 is tried and tested and as you say you can get plenty of different ammo etc - no point in reinventing the wheel! LOL!

 

Dekers - I got it issued on two basis, 1 was the kings forest scheme where they have fallow and reds, and 2 for use at my local rifle club for zeroing. I had to actually make a booking at kings forest and provide evidence etc. Subsequent to this is have now secured this land, hence my question.

 

So looks like I should be OK with the 308 then, as some of you say, I can't imagine a 243 being granted and then not a 308 esp. in view that I have reds to cull.

 

Lastly, I'm keeping out of the agruement that seems to have started on this thread!

 

Have a good wknd! Jon

[kent]

.243 win will cull Red deer just fine! but needs care on bullet selection, not that the .308 doesn't just its easier to get it wrong on that count with .243- weight is only a guide to performance. you should do well with your choice, I have stalked with various calibres over the years and there is good reasons why the .243 and .308 are so popular and the top two choices in the UK on numbers

Edited March 22, 2013 by kent

[Redgum]

................................. and the 308 is just a nice calibre to shoot.

[Dekers]

................................. and the 308 is just a nice calibre to shoot.

 

 

.22lr "is just a nice calibre to shoot"

 

If you want a nice calibre to shoot try a 58g .243 V-Max and watch the instant precision and devastation 250 yards away! If you are talking just a nice calibre to shoot, I struggle to see why the .243 will not win hands down over a .308! My .308 Rem 700 SPS is a pussycat of a .308 to shoot with 150g SP, but my .243 is a clear winner!

 

What has just a nice calibre to shoot has got to do with this?

[Gimlet]

Oh God here we go...

 

Jonnys, are you a fisherman by any chance? You baited this swim a treat.

[Redgum]

 

.22lr "is just a nice calibre to shoot"

 

If you want a nice calibre to shoot try a 58g .243 V-Max and watch the instant precision and devastation 250 yards away! If you are talking just a nice calibre to shoot, I struggle to see why the .243 will not win hands down over a .308! My .308 Rem 700 SPS is a pussycat of a .308 to shoot with 150g SP, but my .243 is a clear winner!

 

What has just a nice calibre to shoot has got to do with this?

Yaawwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Edited March 22, 2013 by Redgum

[kent]

 

.22lr "is just a nice calibre to shoot"

 

If you want a nice calibre to shoot try a 58g .243 V-Max and watch the instant precision and devastation 250 yards away! If you are talking just a nice calibre to shoot, I struggle to see why the .243 will not win hands down over a .308! My .308 Rem 700 SPS is a pussycat of a .308 to shoot with 150g SP, but my .243 is a clear winner!

 

What has just a nice calibre to shoot has got to do with this?

You have to on a wind up there, if I took a guy out similar loaded he wouldn't get to even try. The very reason the Scots had the sense to limit us to 100 grn is IDIOTS using such bullets in .243 and it has a lot to do with the undeserved bad reputation in some quarters of the .243 as a large deer gun

[Dekers]

You have to on a wind up there, if I took a guy out similar loaded he wouldn't get to even try. The very reason the Scots had the sense to limit us to 100 grn is IDIOTS using such bullets in .243 and it has a lot to do with the undeserved bad reputation in some quarters of the .243 as a large deer gun

 

 

What are you on ...what has ..............and the 308 is just a nice calibre to shoot. got to do with this thread? It does not stack up against a .243 with pretty much ANY ammo on that front, that was an ill informed comment from someone who obviously doesn't know what they are talking about!

 

Am I suggesting you shoot deer with a .22lr or a 58g V-Max 243? I am responding to a daft comment.

 

And the reason the Scots commonly suggest/require a .308 is because IDIOTS on paid shoots can't even be relied upon to put that anywhere close and stop the quarry, thats why they take the dogs as well. They need to give some people a cannon in the hope that it may work! That came FIRST hand from the keepers/gillies on my first ever shooting trip to Scotland long before the days of the 1991 Deer Act! That still holds true on this forum as certain people who suggest the 308 is just a nice calibre to shoot seem to need it for the Muntjac as well!

 

There are many different situations when shooting, and if someone wants or needs the .308 then fine, but there are always reasons, I am not telling the world to use a .243, even though a .243 is VERY capable of stopping ANY deer in this country in most situations and can be a better choice in some situations.

 

The need for the .308 comes down to handful of situations or the shooters ability, whichever way you look at it the .243 is just a nice calibre to shoot over the .308 every time!

 

Rather than taking this even further of topic than it already is when you respond, which I know you will, lets do it by PM to avoid any grief here!

Edited March 23, 2013 by Dekers

[Redgum]

There is an old saying Dekers, 'you cant educate pork'. If you read the first post on this thread you will see that the chap was after advice and reasurance over his choice of rifle for the animals he was stalking as well as the land approval advice for 308. Why is it that whatever I say winds you up. For the 'experience stalker' and those that control deer for a living ie Forestry Commission, 308 seems to be the calibre of choice if you are dealing with deer larger than Roe. There are no issues with being on the legal limit , it will deliver a large range of bullet weights in the deer sized game range, whereas 243 is at the very top of its range in weight. 243 is a great calibre for fox and deer, 308 will punch harder for the larger stuff. 243 is entry calibre for large deer, 308 is not, more will get a variation for 243 than 308. And as for the statement that seems to annoy you the most, I prefer to shoot it over my 243, the sound, the nice solid recoil, it inspires confidence and as for reloading, well that just goes without saying.

Dekers, some advice to you, give the keyboard a miss and just get out there and do some shooting, you might learn something.

[Dekers]

Theres another old saying, "those that can do, those that can't use a cannon".

 

If you want a debate PM me!

[Gunnerbob]

Oh dear...it's all getting a little fraught......

[kent]

There is an old saying Dekers, 'you cant educate pork'. If you read the first post on this thread you will see that the chap was after advice and reasurance over his choice of rifle for the animals he was stalking as well as the land approval advice for 308. Why is it that whatever I say winds you up. For the 'experience stalker' and those that control deer for a living ie Forestry Commission, 308 seems to be the calibre of choice if you are dealing with deer larger than Roe. There are no issues with being on the legal limit , it will deliver a large range of bullet weights in the deer sized game range, whereas 243 is at the very top of its range in weight. 243 is a great calibre for fox and deer, 308 will punch harder for the larger stuff. 243 is entry calibre for large deer, 308 is not, more will get a variation for 243 than 308. And as for the statement that seems to annoy you the most, I prefer to shoot it over my 243, the sound, the nice solid recoil, it inspires confidence and as for reloading, well that just goes without saying.

Dekers, some advice to you, give the keyboard a miss and just get out there and do some shooting, you might learn something.

It was .270 for a long time, in fairness its mainly down to factory ammo availability and cost with the FC. Me and you have discussed .243 v .308 before I have used and owned both like yourself and a 7-08 (referring only to same case variants only here). for someone with a less than good knowledge of terminals as regards placement or any "specific" bullet performance criteria as I might imagine to be the case here bigger is better if you get it a bit wrong on any of these counts, as regards lightweight rifles and accurate shooting from difficult stances .243 shines out but comments as Dekers made (even in jest) are less than helpful to the deer, the calibre or the new guy. We all know what Dekers is like LOL. The RPA woodland stalker is available off the shelf in .243 win and .308 win only (though I believe any similar .260 rem / 7-08 etc might be available to order?) I think that says a lot! I totally get the "nice to shoot" and its certainly nice to hand load a .308 to boot with its big open neck etc. .243 is a bit of a case stretcher and certainly a faster barrel burner (but I love it). THE OP HAS MADE A GOOD CHOICE FOR HIS PURPOSES

[Redgum]

It was .270 for a long time, in fairness its mainly down to factory ammo availability and cost with the FC. Me and you have discussed .243 v .308 before I have used and owned both like yourself and a 7-08 (referring only to same case variants only here). for someone with a less than good knowledge of terminals as regards placement or any "specific" bullet performance criteria as I might imagine to be the case here bigger is better if you get it a bit wrong on any of these counts, as regards lightweight rifles and accurate shooting from difficult stances .243 shines out but comments as Dekers made (even in jest) are less than helpful to the deer, the calibre or the new guy. We all know what Dekers is like LOL. The RPA woodland stalker is available off the shelf in .243 win and .308 win only (though I believe any similar .260 rem / 7-08 etc might be available to order?) I think that says a lot! I totally get the "nice to shoot" and its certainly nice to hand load a .308 to boot with its big open neck etc. .243 is a bit of a case stretcher and certainly a faster barrel burner (but I love it). THE OP HAS MADE A GOOD CHOICE FOR HIS PURPOSES

Exactly Kent, shooting off a bipod and bags is one thing, freehand, off sticks or leaning on a tree is another. Experience is something that cannot be bought and the 308 in the field for larger deer has advantages. Unlike Dekers, I cannot shoot consistant half inch groups off sticks in a steep, often wet, woodland environment when I only have seconds to make the decision.

[kent]

Exactly Kent, shooting off a bipod and bags is one thing, freehand, off sticks or leaning on a tree is another. Experience is something that cannot be bought and the 308 in the field for larger deer has advantages. Unlike Dekers, I cannot shoot consistant half inch groups off sticks in a steep, often wet, woodland environment when I only have seconds to make the decision.

In truth not met anyone who can (in practice) if we are talking 100 yds 1/2", I can pretty much guarantee not much worse with an easier to handle round. Putting a 150 grn pro-hunter into the correct 5"-6" will finish any red though as long as the OP don't run before he can walk he will do very well indeed with his choice.

[Redgum]

In truth not met anyone who can (in practice) if we are talking 100 yds 1/2", I can pretty much guarantee not much worse with an easier to handle round. Putting a 150 grn pro-hunter into the correct 5"-6" will finish any red though as long as the OP don't run before he can walk he will do very well indeed with his choice.

Its very important to spend time to get a very accurate rifle/ammo combo, time spent shooting targets and getting nice little groups will also inspire confidence in the field. But many forget to practice in the manner in which they shoot ie off sticks, from trees, freestanding, you will get better if you practice. It can be seen on any DSC1 shooting test how some very experienced stalkers can fail once off the bipod. It can be an expensive hobby with a large centre fire but a .22lr can be used to hone technique, you don't need to shoot more than 50yds to see how good you are or not.

[kent]

Very much agree, but £20 worth of cf ammo once a month is more than a good idea. Not enough people practice stances taken in the field? I should say practically non as they are keener to impress their mates with bughole groups from a prone or bench stance - dead wrong! get out and practice quick off hand shots, high wind shots, sitters, kneelers, tops of walls etc. is the way forwards. You don't need to fire a lot of rounds, even dry firing with proper snap caps is a start and helps dwell time

Its very important to spend time to get a very accurate rifle/ammo combo, time spent shooting targets and getting nice little groups will also inspire confidence in the field. But many forget to practice in the manner in which they shoot ie off sticks, from trees, freestanding, you will get better if you practice. It can be seen on any DSC1 shooting test how some very experienced stalkers can fail once off the bipod. It can be an expensive hobby with a large centre fire but a .22lr can be used to hone technique, you don't need to shoot more than 50yds to see how good you are or not.

[Redgum]

Very much agree, but £20 worth of cf ammo once a month is more than a good idea. Not enough people practice stances taken in the field? I should say practically non as they are keener to impress their mates with bughole groups from a prone or bench stance - dead wrong! get out and practice quick off hand shots, high wind shots, sitters, kneelers, tops of walls etc. is the way forwards. You don't need to fire a lot of rounds, even dry firing with proper snap caps is a start and helps dwell time

Once you have mastered all the various shooting positions to the best of your ability the next hurdle is controlling the adrenalin and shaking hands when you have stalked that fallow buck down to 80 yds. He's stood square on, the rifle is on the sticks and you have to keep the cross hairs steady enough so you can squeeze the trigger with out pulling the rifle. It gets more controllable with experience but I hope I never loose that feeling.

[Sauer020]

I agree with the "practice" thing but its also worth noting that no stalker should feel obliged to take a shot within a certain time frame UNLESS its a follow up shot, too many people see a deer and feel they have to shoot it as quickly as possible so use bad rests or bad positions that can lead to a poor shot.

 

Take your time, move to a comfortable and stable position you are happy with, do not rush! I can't ever remember seeing a deer in a massive hurry or that I couldn't either stalk along with unless it has seen you! Deer tend to do things slowly - they know that taking their time is in their best interests as it can be the difference between life and death when ensuring predators are not around.

 

Even in woodland clearings/rides they usually have a pause.

 

There is some good advice here but remember there is always another day/deer, a bad shot stays with you and can really put you off shooting/stalking - and you WILL eventually have one if you shoot enough deer, anyone who says you won't hasn't shot enough deer.

 

On the "nice to shoot" I find very little discernible difference between a 308 and 243, what I will say is it always surprises me how after shooting most rifles moderated for the last few years - you pick up an Unmoderated 243 or 308 to shoot it and its a barking nasty monster compared to the moderated rifles.

 

With advances in moderator technology today balance is really no longer an issue, aesthetics and rifles such as stutzen stocks will be but otherwise I would always advise a moderator on a centrefire rifle, even the hardcore hill stalkers are catching onto this with products such as A-tec etc on the market.

 

All the best.

Sauer.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Sauer020