aris Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 Sometimes you have to follow your conscience. "I was only following orders" doesn't wash any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapalomablanca Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 Say you find out that your employer is breaking the law, then what? Go with the 'ol Nuremburg defence of just following orders? Maybe 'real politik' is just the way the world works. Maybe he wanted to make a name for himself. We have seen it all before, i just find it hard to believe that someone is so principled and so full of conscience that these are their reasons for what they do. Maybe i am a cynic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted June 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) Maybe 'real politik' is just the way the world works. Maybe he wanted to make a name for himself. We have seen it all before, i just find it hard to believe that someone is so principled and so full of conscience that these are their reasons for what they do. Maybe i am a cynic. Not the point and not the answer to the question. Indeed, the Yanks have made a personal attack on him and his motives, and that's been a rather neat distraction from the "my employer has broken the law" bit. Edited June 23, 2013 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 What I find odd is that anyone, with a pulse, can be genuinely surprised about these revelations ! If governments have the ability to eavesdrop, then they will. I would think it inconceivable that other countries aren't at it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapalomablanca Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 Not the point and not the answer to the question. Indeed, the Yanks have made a personal attack on him and his motives, and that's been a rather neat distraction from the "my employer has broken the law" bit. I dont think i can answer your question then. Too much ambiguity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbga9pgf Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 The guy is a traitor. You don't agree to your clearance unless you can hold the responsibility. What the hell did he think the NSA were doing? Still steaming open people's mail after a court order? I would put money on their being an uptick in successful attacks on westerners as a result. If you think you are now safer, you are wrong IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) The man is a hero, no question. Granted, what they do may stop things from happening, but they missed the Boston bombings, all those school massacres and quite a few other notable events, so is it really that effective?! The problem is that he's uncovered a world where every phonecall, text and email you've ever sent can be used against you. Forget a warrant to check your home PC, it's already catalogued and ready to check. Just get onto the NSA, put through your request and GCHQ have what they need. Edited June 23, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) The guy is a traitor. You don't agree to your clearance unless you can hold the responsibility. What the hell did he think the NSA were doing? Still steaming open people's mail after a court order? I would put money on their being an uptick in successful attacks on westerners as a result. If you think you are now safer, you are wrong IMHO. He's a traitor to the world if he keeps his mouth shut. What he's uncovered breaks all the laws and constitutions which supposedly protect the US citizens. The American population are now aware their government is about as bent as North Korea. Edited June 23, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 It would seem that the US government have access to data any American company holds. The 2011 UK census was done by an American company. Think about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 Right, thats Mungler and Billy off for a very long holiday in orange jumpsuits................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 It's about controlling 'democracy'. Short and straight to the point, well said The funny thing is all the people hand wringing on this issue freely provide all the information anybody needs about their personal lives every time they twitter, Facebook, reddit, pigeon watch etc etc (think of the profiles with lists of guns owned on this forum for example). Every store loyalty card you possess provides a detailed profile of you habits and allows companies and retailers to target you accordingly. All this information is freely available and always will be as long as the Internet exists. The Internet was a concept devised to allow the passage of information around an academic institution, nobody ever thought it would be used for banking, shopping and communication at the current scale therefore all the security measures now available are merely add ons. The point is that those who are concerned in nefarious activities do so surreptitiously and unless we, the general law abiding population, want to provide freedom of movement for these people we have to allow the security services the tools to defend the realm. Do you honestly believe GCHQ is interested in reading the naughty emails you are sending to your mistress or that you have an interest in a niche specialist (legal) pornography. They haven't enough time or resources to monitor the real threats as it is. My final point I wish to make is that it is less than a month ago since the media and politicians were criticising MI5 for failing to prevent the attack on and murder of Drummer Rigby by the two individuals who killed him and now we want to make that task harder? The security services work for us and, on the whole, are accountable for their actions. Terrorists and criminals aren't. You are missing the point about information collected,if i use a nectar card or a tesco card, i am fully aware that they will use it to track my purchasing habits and target me accordingly. The big no no is collecting information by the back door, i do not give my consent for you to snoop into my emails or eavesdrop into my telephone calls or check my texts. on the point of terrorism if there was a suspicion that i was connected in any way to anything that could cause harm then that is fair game snoop away,but governments are snooping wholesale and gathering buckets of information about everyone this is not for your protection it is for their gain,there is no way of checking what they are doing and should be a concern for everyone. Governments always look for ways to pacify and control the populous and in this day and age they have unprecedented access to your life and what you do,the question is what will they eventually do with all this information,if you don't agree will a van turn up in the middle of the night and whisk you away,that could never happen right! As for Lee Rigby,well the security services got it very wrong on many levels,and could have done things differently but they didn't fail because of snooping they failed because someone on the ground got it wrong, it's called human error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted June 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 The guy is a traitor. You don't agree to your clearance unless you can hold the responsibility. What the hell did he think the NSA were doing? Still steaming open people's mail after a court order? I would put money on their being an uptick in successful attacks on westerners as a result. If you think you are now safer, you are wrong IMHO. Say you work for our government and find out through your job that the government has been bumping off journalists. You've signed the official secrets act, you work for the government and what do you do? Just-following-orders-tastic. Do laws apply to the democratically elected governments that make them? Can Governments break 'small' laws? Can Governments determine what's a small law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbga9pgf Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) no laws were broken. Edited June 23, 2013 by mbga9pgf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) no laws were broken. Bit of reading for you The Fourth Amendment of the Untied States Constitution Edited June 23, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbga9pgf Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) Deleted Edited June 23, 2013 by mbga9pgf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted June 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 no laws were broken. Really? Why are the Yanks so upset then? "And that is precisely why the US government is so furious and will bring its full weight to bear against these disclosures. What has been "harmed" is not the national security of the US but the ability of its political leaders to work against their own citizens and citizens around the world in the dark, with zero transparency or real accountability. If anything is a crime, it's that secret, unaccountable and deceitful behavior: not the shining of light on it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 no laws were broken. Ha Ha Ha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbga9pgf Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 There is such a thing as the armed forces, which uphold decency and ultimately, protect the populace from renegade politicians who ahem, attempt to overstay their mandate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted June 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) Think about it - do you think terrorists, the North Koreans or the Chinese give a monkeys that the US is spying on its own citizens? No, they probably already knew. The only people it affects are those people who empowered the governments that are spying on them I.e the people. You haven't answered my question about bumping off journalists - would you say or do anything? Edited June 23, 2013 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 There is such a thing as the armed forces, which uphold decency and ultimately, protect the populace from renegade politicians who ahem, attempt to overstay their mandate There is also a thing called deceitful and cunning governments who stay in power and use that power to their own ends. The Military are there to fight, ultimately they will only step in to protect the monarchy(sure we have done the martial law thing in the past)and it will a little to late by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 There is such a thing as the armed forces, which uphold decency and ultimately, protect the populace from renegade politicians who ahem, attempt to overstay their mandate and the armed forces are controlled by who ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbga9pgf Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 The government aren't interested in its citizens; its the rotten eggs that they are concerned about. 99.99% of material collected isn't even viewed by a human being, according to the guardian anyhow. How the guardian got away with releasing what they did is a disgrace in the first place, some things simply shouldn't be said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 The government aren't interested in its citizens; its the rotten eggs that they are concerned about. 99.99% of material collected isn't even viewed by a human being, according to the guardian anyhow. How the guardian got away with releasing what they did is a disgrace in the first place, some things simply shouldn't be said. And the guardian know all this how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbga9pgf Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 and the armed forces are controlled by who ? In the uk's case, report directly to the sovereign and not the government. It's a system the USA do not have, and can be seen as an ultimate safeguard of our monarchy ruled democratic system. And the guardian know all this how? Due to snowden apparently. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/how-does-gchq-internet-surveillance-work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) Ok, simply put, what laws were broken if the us was spying on uk citizens and the the uk spying on us citizens? Where to start... Broken the UK RIPA Act, which requires a warrant to begin tapping data and comms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000 Human rights: ECHR - Article 8 - Privacy: Right to personal liberty Right to respect for private and family life Right to personal privacy I tell you what, if some immigrant can throw the ECHR book at UK courts and win asylum over one little point, then by god there's every right for the UK public to do the same against any government who have mined the data of the world for future use. Edited June 23, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.