condition wording on my licence?

[Mr Majyk]

Hi all, just wanted someone else's feedback on a condition of my licence, it is:

 

"The holder of this certificate may, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or missiles of such ammunition, in .22,

.17hmr and .223 calibres authorised by this certificate and may use such ammunition only in connection with the shooting of vermin."

 

I shall soon be buying a Sako S491 then saving all my shiny pennies to go on my first deer stalk for muntys BUT my licence doesnt have deer on it despite me saying in my FAC interview that the .223 would be used for muntjac stalking? am i correct in saying that muntjac are included under vermin? i seem to remember someone once saying that muntjac were classified as vermin and could be shot all year round? a bit of clarification from someone in the know better than me would be greatly appreciated!

[wickedwickedmotox]

No Muntjac are not classified as vermin with reference to an fac. You would need to get it added by either asking nicley or send a letter of proof you have a paid stalk

[scimitar]

Muntjac are not vermin, however they don't have a close season and can be shot all year round.

[r1steele]

Hi all, just wanted someone else's feedback on a condition of my licence, it is:

 

"The holder of this certificate may, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or missiles of such ammunition, in .22,

.17hmr and .223 calibres authorised by this certificate and may use such ammunition only in connection with the shooting of vermin."

 

I shall soon be buying a Sako S491 then saving all my shiny pennies to go on my first deer stalk for muntys BUT my licence doesnt have deer on it despite me saying in my FAC interview that the .223 would be used for muntjac stalking? am i correct in saying that muntjac are included under vermin? i seem to remember someone once saying that muntjac were classified as vermin and could be shot all year round? a bit of clarification from someone in the know better than me would be greatly appreciated!

Ask your local firearms department have the AOLQ (any other lawful quarry) condition put onto your fac which is the recommended condition of BASC, NGO etc. I think that it was recently recommended for all firearms departments to include this condition by Chief Constable Andy Marsh (ACPO). I have included a section form The Sporting Gun webpage (news section, page 3) for you to look at and you can refer this to your feo. Any problems, call BASC, NGO etc. Good luck, ROB

 

 

 

Firearms licence conditions: Chief constable advises that conditions for firearms licensing should be streamlined to prevent delays and save police time.

Conditions for firearms licensing in the UK should be streamlined and only used if they are both “proportionate and necessary in reducing the risk to public safety or a statutory requirement”.

 

That is the view of Andy Marsh, Association of Chief Police Officers lead for the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group (ACPO FELWG), who has written to the chief of senior officers in charge of firearms licensing throughout the UK.

 

In his letter, Chief Constable Marsh mentions two conditions “of particular debate” — the Any Other Lawful Quarry (AOLQ) and the mentoring/accompanied conditions.

 

He wrote: “At present, some forces issue conditions which dictate what [AOLQ] quarry can be shot with a specific calibre, leading to requests to vary conditions thus making inefficient use of staff time, i.e. a shooter could hold a deerstalking rifle and not be allowed to shoot a fox with that same rifle as it breaches their condition.”

 

“I would like to encourage the use of the AOLQ condition on all firearms certificates with immediate effect.”

 

“A force should be satisfied that if an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions.”

 

Chief Constable Marsh said that the mentoring/accompanied conditions “appears to be a suitable condition” at first glance, but he advises forces to consider its use carefully, and that he aims to remove the use of the condition.

 

He says that “this mentor does not require any specific training or qualification to undertake this role. Furthermore, we do not enforce that the mentor actually teaches the new applicant and indeed if this were being enforced, I would question if this was the most efficient use of our resources.”

 

He added: “So through an unchecked and unqualified process, we the firearms departments, have to once again vary a certificate if the mentoring condition is applied, thus causing further delays and added bureaucracy.”

Read more at http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/538772/Chief_constable_calls_for_simpler_firearms_licence_conditions.html#vjtlidLrHCgE1le1.99

[al4x]

Basically you don't have deer on there and all you can do is talk to them, though basc seem to think police will start granting AOLQ and just let people shoot deer I really can't see them having such an about turn so see how you go

[r1steele]

Basically you don't have deer on there and all you can do is talk to them, though basc seem to think police will start granting AOLQ and just let people shoot deer I really can't see them having such an about turn so see how you go

It's not actually BASC that seem to think this. It is coming from one of the chief constables in charge of licencing in the uk and is being recommended that all uk licensing departments use this condition. Some police forces already had this as routine and more are coming round to this condition with the help of BASC etc reminding them of there obligations to uphold the law not make their own.

[Greymaster]

Strictly speaking, Marsh is only in charge of licensing in Hampshire as he is Hampshire Chief Constable. He is ACPO lead on Firearms, and can only offer "leadership". Other Chief Constables may or may not choose to follow.

 

ACPO is not a law making body, it is a taxpayer funded private limited company and spends about £500K p.a. of public funds on an annual junket to no obvious benefit.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1291763/Walk-half-mile-But-ACPO-Britains-senior-police-chiefs-executive-coach-half-mile-trip.html

[al4x]

That's it but the option is to require training before you get the AOLQ rather than mentoring. It's still all advice and really I can't see them dropping every condition for new applicants with no experience and letting them shoot everything

[Redgum]

 

That's it but the option is to require training before you get the AOLQ rather than mentoring. It's still all advice and really I can't see them dropping every condition for new applicants with no experience and letting them shoot everything

Think you are right there al4x, the police won't just put AOLQ on every calibre thats on your license but will use this wording if your are experienced enough to deal with all other legal Quarry. The wording will probably replace wordings of multi animals species on calibres and to clear up the old scenario of you seeing a fox while out with your 308 and the calibre is specified for goats,deer and boar only. Gloucestershire Firearms have started to use this wording, my license is in for renewal and I have requested this condition but I don't expect they would issue it to anyone without DSC1 whether its the law or not.

[r1steele]

 

Think you are right there al4x, the police won't just put AOLQ on every calibre thats on your license but will use this wording if your are experienced enough to deal with all other legal Quarry. The wording will probably replace wordings of multi animals species on calibres and to clear up the old scenario of you seeing a fox while out with your 308 and the calibre is specified for goats,deer and boar only. Gloucestershire Firearms have started to use this wording, my license is in for renewal and I have requested this condition but I don't expect they would issue it to anyone without DSC1 whether its the law or not.

I have it on my fac and I'm not DSC.

[al4x]

Did you have a mentor condition or deer added years ago?

[r1steele]

Did you have a mentor condition or deer added years ago?

never had a mentor or deer added. Used to use my .222 for roe (Scotland) which was conditioned for fox and any other lawful quarry. I've never had a deer specific rifle.

[Frenchieboy]

That's it but the option is to require training before you get the AOLQ rather than mentoring. It's still all advice and really I can't see them dropping every condition for new applicants with no experience and letting them shoot everything

You are quite right there al4x. When I spoke to my firearms office (Lancashire) they said that they would be quite willing to put AOLQ on for those that asked for it - As long as they had Open/Experienced conditions on their certificate! That attitude makes a lot of sense to me rather than allowing every new applicant loose without any experience at all!

[al4x]

Scotland does seem a fair bit more sensible in this but as Frenchie suggests I can't see many in England doing anything other than the above. They have gone to such lengths to bring in mentoring and require training for deer that dropping the lot and letting every new applicant go for deer with an AOLQ condition seems far fetched at best. Its the slightly concerning thing with the recent ACPO advice that was to allow AOLQ but there was a mention of allowing more for training than mentoring which to me isn't necessarily as good as some made out.

[r1steele]

Scotland does seem a fair bit more sensible in this but as Frenchie suggests I can't see many in England doing anything other than the above. They have gone to such lengths to bring in mentoring and require training for deer that dropping the lot and letting every new applicant go for deer with an AOLQ condition seems far fetched at best. Its the slightly concerning thing with the recent ACPO advice that was to allow AOLQ but there was a mention of allowing more for training than mentoring which to me isn't necessarily as good as some made out.

I don't live in Scotland, I actually meant the .222 was used for roe in Scotland (sorry for the confusion). My fac was issued by South Wales Police and Dyfed Powys before.

[Redgum]

 

I don't live in Scotland, I actually meant the .222 was used for roe in Scotland (sorry for the confusion). My fac was issued by South Wales Police and Dyfed Powys before.

Of course then theres Wales, only joking. Do you have .243 or larger calibres with the same condition? If not would be interesting to see if it was allowed if you applied for a variation. Forces do vary so much county to county, you would think it would be easy enough to have the same license structure across the board.Imagine if the speed limits varied from county to county, it would be a nightmare.

[r1steele]

 

Of course then theres Wales, only joking. Do you have .243 or larger calibres with the same condition? If not would be interesting to see if it was allowed if you applied for a variation. Forces do vary so much county to county, you would think it would be easy enough to have the same license structure across the board.Imagine if the speed limits varied from county to county, it would be a nightmare.

I could have had the .243 with the same condition. My father has the AOLQ for his .22 rimfire (Northumbria) so foxes can be shot with it(sensible ranges). Forces do have the same licencing structure (supposed to) which is set in the home-office guidelines, but these are only guidelines and can be manipulated to suit whoever is in charge of licencing in your county. It's wrong but that's what seems to happen.

[CharlieT]

I could have had the .243 with the same condition. My father has the AOLQ for his .22 rimfire (Northumbria) so foxes can be shot with it(sensible ranges). Forces do have the same licencing structure (supposed to) which is set in the home-office guidelines, but these are only guidelines and can be manipulated to suit whoever is in charge of licencing in your county. It's wrong but that's what seems to happen.

 

I'm afraid Alex is correct. Deer need to be listed on your FAC otherwise you can't shoot them. Fox and AOLQ or Vermin and AOLQ does not include deer.

 

Read this from ACPO:...................

The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Firearms and Explosives Licensing WorkingGroup (FELWG) has issued advice that supports Chapter 13.14 & 13.22 of the Home Office

guidance. It advised police forces to allow larger calibre rifles to be used to take lesser

species i.e. where the primary reason for possession e.g. deer stalking was established, all

lesser species such as foxes and pests could to be shot. This practice has been

commonplace in Scotland for some time, and has not endangered public safety in any way.

In June 2009 ACPO FELWG again advised forces of a new condition that can be used in

place of the standard condition in Appendix 3 of the Home Office guidance. -

The (rifle/sound moderator/firearms/ammunition) shall be used for shooting (Named

Principal Quarry Species) and any other lawful quarry, on land deemed suitable by the chief

officer of police for the area where the land is situated, and for zeroing on ranges, over

which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

[r1steele]

 

 

I'm afraid Alex is correct. Deer need to be listed on your FAC otherwise you can't shoot them. Fox and AOLQ or Vermin and AOLQ does not include deer.

 

Read this from ACPO:...................

The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Firearms and Explosives Licensing WorkingGroup (FELWG) has issued advice that supports Chapter 13.14 & 13.22 of the Home Office

guidance. It advised police forces to allow larger calibre rifles to be used to take lesser

species i.e. where the primary reason for possession e.g. deer stalking was established, all

lesser species such as foxes and pests could to be shot. This practice has been

commonplace in Scotland for some time, and has not endangered public safety in any way.

In June 2009 ACPO FELWG again advised forces of a new condition that can be used in

place of the standard condition in Appendix 3 of the Home Office guidance. -

The (rifle/sound moderator/firearms/ammunition) shall be used for shooting (Named

Principal Quarry Species) and any other lawful quarry, on land deemed suitable by the chief

officer of police for the area where the land is situated, and for zeroing on ranges, over

which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

 

Where does this actually state deer must be listed on your fac and AOLQ does not include deer?

13.8 of the home-office guidelines

“Quarry” is the general term for live

animals (including birds) shot over land. In this

context, “land” means an area to be shot over,

for example a woodland, moorland, heath,

wetland, foreshore, open water or field.

Firearm certificate holders may wish to use

firearms to shoot at deer, game, pest or other

quarry species. Calibres authorised should be

powerful enough to ensure a clean kill of the

quarry species concerned.

I would have thought this would mean deer to be lawful quarry.

[CharlieT]

Where does this actually state deer must be listed on your fac and AOLQ does not include deer?

13.8 of the home-office guidelines

“Quarry” is the general term for live

animals (including birds) shot over land. In this

context, “land” means an area to be shot over,

for example a woodland, moorland, heath,

wetland, foreshore, open water or field.

Firearm certificate holders may wish to use

firearms to shoot at deer, game, pest or other

quarry species. Calibres authorised should be

powerful enough to ensure a clean kill of the

quarry species concerned.

I would have thought this would mean deer to be lawful quarry.

 

It has always been so.

 

Read the article I posted which was issued by ACPO.

[Redgum]

 

It has always been so.

 

Read the article I posted which was issued by ACPO.

FEO's do get very confused, I was told I couldnt change a FAC air rifle variation for a 243 as the calibre change was to great (of course this was rubbish). If a condition says vermin and all other legal quarry for a 222 then surely Munties and CWD would legally be covered, but then so would Goats & Boar as there isnt a legal calibre for these, just police guidelines. The law is so unclear, is there a legal muzzle energy for Munties and CWD as there is for Roe and larger deer, if not then you could, in theory, shoot them with a .22lr or .17hmr if you had vermin and other legal quarry on your license.If this new streamlined conditioning isnt thought through then alot of animals are going to suffer!

[r1steele]

 

It has always been so.

 

Read the article I posted which was issued by ACPO.

I have read the article and nowhere does it state deer must be listed on your fac. It says 'named principal quarry' which in my case is not deer but fox. It also mentions primary reason for possession 'e.g' deer stalking and all lesser species. It doesn't say you cannot have it for fox and not deer.

[al4x]

 

FEO's do get very confused, I was told I couldnt change a FAC air rifle variation for a 243 as the calibre change was to great (of course this was rubbish). If a condition says vermin and all other legal quarry for a 222 then surely Munties and CWD would legally be covered, but then so would Goats & Boar as there isnt a legal calibre for these, just police guidelines. The law is so unclear, is there a legal muzzle energy for Munties and CWD as there is for Roe and larger deer, if not then you could, in theory, shoot them with a .22lr or .17hmr if you had vermin and other legal quarry on your license.If this new streamlined conditioning isnt thought through then alot of animals are going to suffer!

Mnuties and cwd are covered and require a 50 grain plus bullet with over 1000 ftlbs from what I remember by law

[CharlieT]

 

FEO's do get very confused, I was told I couldnt change a FAC air rifle variation for a 243 as the calibre change was to great (of course this was rubbish). If a condition says vermin and all other legal quarry for a 222 then surely Munties and CWD would legally be covered, but then so would Goats & Boar as there isnt a legal calibre for these, just police guidelines. The law is so unclear, is there a legal muzzle energy for Munties and CWD as there is for Roe and larger deer, if not then you could, in theory, shoot them with a .22lr or .17hmr if you had vermin and other legal quarry on your license.If this new streamlined conditioning isnt thought through then alot of animals are going to suffer!

 

You are quite right, some FEO's do indeed get very confused even on the simplest bits of firearms legislation.

 

The AOLQ condition is perhaps one of the best bits of logic to come from ACPO, thanks to the NGO and BASC who lobbied for it back in I think it was early 2009 and its implementation will do away with the ridiculous situation where people were prohibited from using their larger caliber rifles from shooting fox or vermin. Such conditions as "fox only whilst deer stalking" will become a thing of the past.

 

If one looks back at the history of AOLQ it will be seen that ACPO have always intended that AOLQ referred to lesser species and that it followed the primary species that the rifle was granted for.

 

As an example, one of their circulars read ........... advised police forces to allow larger calibre rifles to be used to take lesser

species i.e. where the primary reason for possession e.g. deer stalking was established, all

lesser species such as foxes and pests could to be shot. This practice has been

commonplace in Scotland for some time, and has not endangered public safety in any way.

As some, if not all fac holders who do not have deer listed on their fac, now interpret AOLQ to mean exactly what it says on the tin. That is, as their conditions state Fox and AOLQ they can shoot deer and I won't even go down the Vermin and AOLQ road.

My fear is that as soon as ACPO get whiff of this they will reword the condition and tighten up on its usage which will be a backwards step for us all.

[r1steele]

Mnuties and cwd are covered and require a 50 grain plus bullet with over 1000 ftlbs from what I remember by law

That's correct and it is the same law for roe deer in Scotland. I think the official calibre is 'not less than .220 inches' which is basically giving you the .222 as the minimum calibre with the minimum bullet weight and energy alex has already given.