22 Hornet 13 Grains wont fit

[ThePestControllers]

i have just made my first batch of 22 hornet ammo.

but when i was loading the cases with powder i was unable to fit 13 grains of powder in.

if i used the lee hand loader i suppose i could as you just pour the powder into the top then put the bullet on top and compress it in but does powder leak down the side of the case if it is over filled in the hand loader also.

i am using a rcbs powder measure and lee press and dies.

if i measure 13 grains the case is full to overflowing.

i have used 12.4 grains to start with which still gives a compressed load judging by the powder was just below the rim and if i tapped the case to sink the powder before taking it from powder measure it sank a little more and then the bullet was pressed in below the level the powder was at,so i am guessing that is still a compressed load.

so how does everyone else get 13 grains of powder into there cases.

 

 

Daz

[Amazed]

Hi pal. Do you have any data ?

And what powder case primer bullet are you using ?

 

Thanks

Karl

[ThePestControllers]

Hi Karl

 

i am using

35gr v-max

lil-gun powder

winchester small rifle primer

ppu and hornady cases

at the moment i am using 12.4 grains of powder.

[Amazed]

Hi pal.

You will get better from you lilgun with a heaver bullet.

13grain is a top load I would work up to it really rather than jump strait in.

 

Are they new cases or some you acquired ?

Have you checked the length of them ?

And how are you sizing them ?

Are you weighing the powder or from a measure ?

 

If you look inside your case (try and keep to one make if you can it eliminates that veritable) there will be some metal from where the primer hole was punched clean that out with a 5.5 mm drill bit a few turnes by hand will suffice.

That should get you a bit more space lol

13 grains should fit although it will be tight !

 

All the best

Karl.

[rem708]

I would stop NOW.

 

I've just checked Hodgdon site and 13gn is a top load. There is NO mention its a compressed load!!!!!!!

 

Are you weighing the powder or are you using lee bushings/cups.

 

You should always approach top loads with increments of 0.1 or 0.2 gn checking for signs of over pressure as you go.

 

Unless you have a lot of experience then avoid compressed loads as a mistake will result the action coming apart on you - maybe even through your face

Edited August 3, 2013 by rem708

[mr smith]

Different cases have different volumes i found that remington cases would allow a little more in,i used ppu case and 12.5 grains of lilgun would be up the edge of the case mouth.

[wymberley]

What everyone else has said. Even when worked up, I would suggest that 13gns is the reserve of a fire formed case and even then in those my best loads never exceed 12.8 gns. You may also prefer a CCI primer or even a small pistol version - many say these are better but they didn't work for me. The 35 gn for my money is not ideal for reloading in the Hornet. Temporarily because of Hornady's production cutbacks Hornet users are going to have a bit of a problem, but even so there's still a choice of 45gn bullets to be had which perform much better. However, if you want to stay with the 35 V Max, then Lil'Gun is not the best powder. Have a shufti at the Hodgdon reloading website.

[Livefast123]

The Lee manual lists loads in the .22 Hornet from 12 grains up to a maximum load of 13 grains with Lil Gun. Hodgdons data centre shows the same data and both are shown as compressed loads.

 

I would just find a load that shoots and keeps in the case, bearing in mind that you are on the edge of a never exceed load.

[Underdog]

Compressing the powder will not blow your gun apart! In fact..... to fast a powder that does not fill the case and accidently double dosing or other could blow a gun up and has done far more often than any compressed load of suitable fuel for the cartridge in question. The word compression is not a dirty word in reloading!

 

It could just be those cases are good and thick down bt the web, thats fine.

 

Have fun.

 

U.

[njc110381]

If the powder won't fit then I guess that's hard luck. Try a different case or lower the load.

 

Lil-Gun is extremely forgiving in this cartridge. I've actually used loads in the Hornet where I have used the case as a dipper, swiped the powder off level and rammed a bullet down on the top - I seriously doubt you will over load with this powder and bullet combination. But what you describe is far from ideal. I'd be more worried about spillage ruining the consistency of the round more than pressure. But still, something isn't right so backing off is the sensible thing to do.

 

I used to use S&B cases - 13gr fits in them with room to spare.

[ThePestControllers]

Morning Guys

the case length of my loads is 35.35mm - 35.40mm and the maximum is 35.63mm the first lot of rounds i loaded was in used hornady cases.

so i had no need to trim them.

I have looked at the Hodgdons data and they list lil,gun and the powder measures and i am well within the limits they have set.

i have used 12.4 grains lil,gun with 35gr v-max which i thought was below a medium load in pre fire formed cases so was under the impression that was a safe load.

My ppu cases (unfired new) measure 35.46mm so no need to trim them either yet.

i am using a rcbs pro competition powder measure with micrometers and a rcbs 505 balance scale to double check all of my powder measurements.

i measure 1 drop then do 10 drops and and make sure its spot on.

for instance if i drop 12.4 grains then drop 10 it should weight 124gr which it does.

i am using winchester small rifle primers because they were very cheap compared to cci but i fear that might of been a rookie error and may like you say have to change to cci when i have used them up.

i am using 35gr v-max because i found 500 and the cz 527 is only 1:16" twist and from what i have read and bigger bullet wont stabilise correctly in this twist rate unless i have misunderstood.

one thing i did notice was the poor quality of the hornady cases like for instance the holes in the primer pocket were all over the place and in one instance pulled the primer extractor pin out of my neck sizing die.

but maybe they are not meant to be reloaded i dont know.

but the ppu cases look very good in comparison.

 

would anybody recommend using 12gr of powder and what advantages or disadvantages would it give.

 

and any more info on bullet choice would be greatly appreciated

 

Cheers

Daz

[Amazed]

Hi daz, it's the length of the bullet not just its weight. The 40/45 grain hornet bullets are stubby to keep the stability.

 

From what you have said I would clean and neck size your ppu brass including the flash hole and run a steady load say 12.5 as you know the 12.4 is ok in turn fire forming your cases. Then neck size again and go up in .1 doing 6 rounds of each 2 groups and see where you end up.

Speed isn't it all, consistency is what your after !

This bit of the hornet I found annoying the bullet choice just isn't great and will soon be worse ! 30-46 grain short in length to keep stability ! Serria do some nice bullets worth a look!

 

I you do like the 35 grain v max then look into h110 as a powder it's far better with the lighter bullets.

 

If the hornady cases are that bad then file them under B.

 

Karl.

[wymberley]

The guy that makes Lil'Gun told me not to compress it. Yep, a little squeeze but no powder crunching. Kent seems to have disappeared but he was dead right when he said you can keep stuffing powder in but at a certain point there'll be no increase in velocity and the accuracy will start to fade. I'm not saying do what I do, but I've found that compressing the powder more than 40 to 50 thou, achieves nothing and can be detrimental. A second hand, cheap but reasonably accurate 1 to 2" micrometer ground down as necessary is ideal for checking this.

 

Bullet stabilisation has little to do with weight - length is the critical factor. A handy formula for twist rate (TR) is :-

 

TR = 3.5 (a constant) times the square root of the velocity times the bullet diameter squared all divided by the bullet length. A quick check for examole that if you're pushing your 35gn V Max (length 0.517") at a possible 3000ft/sec then a TR of 18.6 will sort it. Try a 40gn Nosler BT (0.700")and you're down to a 13.6 requirement. This is, of course theory and I find my 45gn Hornady Hornet (0.616") stabilises at 2870. Therefore, it'll be realised that the formula is just a pretty accurate guide.

 

As ever, make haste slowly.

 

Good luck.

 

Edit: Missing decimal point added.

Edited August 4, 2013 by wymberley

[ThePestControllers]

Hi Karl

thanks for the advice i am going to do what you say and fine tune the accuracy.

i have no experience with other bullets apart from 17hmr or 22lr and i like the ballistic tipped bullets in the v-max if for one reason the lack of ricochet.

what other bullets would you recommend that don't ricochet or are very unlikely to ricochet and have an explosive or fragmenting impact.

 

wymberley

i am sorry but maths is not my strong point even at school i just didn't grasp it so its no good me trying to work out anything to do with square roots

maybe i just have not learned enough yet but i find it very difficult trying to work out this sort of thing.

yet i can take a shotgun apart and re machine the hammers,sears ,levers,safety,ejectors to make it work 10 times better than it did so its not that ime thick i just need help with maths.

i know you are knowledgeable in these matters.

i am trying to get there as slowly as i can

 

Cheers

Daz

[wymberley]

No problem, Daz. There's a lot of people out there that would gladly trade some of their education for your skills - I know because I'm one of them.

 

There's a website - just Google JBM Bullet Length List - which is very comprehensive. If you can load 40 or 45gn bullets which do not exceed 0.6" (OK, plus a few thou's) at about 2850ft/sec, then you can forget all about the maths. Loss of accuracy or keyholed (a keyhole is not,as often thought, a small group but a hole left by an unstable bullet hitting the target side on) targets will tell you that you've pushed the twist rate too far.

 

Karl is spot on with the Sierra and the 45gn Speer Spitzer is also worth a look.

 

Cheers,

Phil

[ThePestControllers]

Thanks Phil

i will have a look at the website and see if i make sense of it.

i will start another thread on bullets for the hornet.

cheers

Daz

[Underdog]

I am surprised your cz is 1in16". I thought the industry standard for Hornet changed years ago!

Have you measured it?

 

U

[Amazed]

I am surprised your cz is 1in16". I thought the industry standard for Hornet changed years ago!

Have you measured it?

 

 

 

U

Mines the same pal and it was made in 2011.

 

Daz.

If you like the tipped bullets try and find nosler 40 grain bt or maybe the 40 grain blitzking. There is nothing wrong with what you have apart from it becoming very scarce soon lol.

The other problem with bt bullets is fitting them into the mag !

 

I wouldn't worry too much about ricochets at the velocity you will be firing them they will come apart very easily.

 

Have a quick look on reloaders nest: just for reference I wouldn't follow these loads as is !

http://reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=12

Karl

[wymberley]

I am surprised your cz is 1in16". I thought the industry standard for Hornet changed years ago!

Have you measured it?

 

U

There's bound to be the exception but the only difference to the 16" that I know of for normal production rifles is the Ruger at 14.

[204 rem]

Daz have you tried using Remington cases That's what we use .you can get 13 gr of Hodgdon lilgun in the case quite Easily We started off at 12 gr And worked our way up to 13 gr of Powder with rem 71/2 primers and 40 gr v-max bullets You need to single shoot the bullets or Mess about with the mag.... Rem

[ThePestControllers]

yes ive measured it and i was surprised it was 16" twist because i also thought the later ones were 14"

maybe it was a bit of misinformation.

i have not tried any other cases yet but i will probably stick to ppu for a while and work out what works in them mainly because i have just ordered another 200 of them so i have 300 of them now

Cheers

Daz

[Underdog]

Sorry for being a doubting Thomas....I just checked and yes you are correct....I am surprised!

 

I checked Savage arms quick and they use 14"

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/finder/

 

Oh well....my old beesa was 16" and it was fine with Nosler ballistic tips and v-max at 40grn. Traditional soft points and hollow points at 45grns.

 

My old Savage at 14" would lob trad styled bullets to 55grn.

 

Would I be upset about a 16"twist? No, not a at all.

 

U.

[ThePestControllers]

not as surprised as i was

i am not to bothered about using heavier or longer bullets its just i don't fancy paying £20 for each box to test them if its already been done and most people say they were inaccurate.

accuracy is the most important thing followed closely by the ability to fragment.

 

the reason i am mostly worried about ricochet is i have one permission that is sandy very sandy and the last time i shot my 22lr there i got the shock of my life when a bullet ricochet off the sand and headed through some trees 250 yards away making a noise i can only describe as someone hitting the trees with a baseball bat very loud in the middle of the night.

i was very surprised to get get ricochet from sand.

i did have a large sandy bank as a backstop but the bullet went higher than the bank.

so hence my obsession with fragmenting bullets.

[Amazed]

I would use your vmax at the min mate and look into the speer TNT( green now named ) as they are very frangable.

And as I suggested theses.

 

http://www.nosler.com/varmageddon/

 

Karl.

[ThePestControllers]

just watching some videos on youtube about these now