aris Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Anyone seen this in the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 i aint doubting the accuracy, but thats dog awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted October 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I'm wondering where the skill is in shooting these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Not for many of us but some of these guns not the strange thing in the vid are quite beautiful things to behold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONAH898 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Seen guys on the range at 300 and 500 yards prone with a £300 .308 get that sort of grouping lying in cow poo lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Seen guys on the range at 300 and 500 yards prone with a £300 .308 get that sort of grouping lying in cow poo lol Then you woke up If it wasn't for these guys at the cutting edge, striving for the very best accuracy, at their own expense then we would still be shooting smooth bore muskets or at best a military based round. Almost all the major improvements in accuracy have been made by private enthusiasts pushing the boundaries. Without this sort development there would have been none of those great cartridges like the 6ppc, 6Br. .257 Roberts, the Ackley's, 22-250, 300 Savage etc. The ammunition manufacturers don't strive to develop new rounds they are pushed into it, to try and keep up with private shooters. It took many years before you could actually buy 6mm PPC brass - If you wanted the accuracy to be competitive you had to fireform the brass yourself. Only a few years ago a rifle that could shoot a 5 shot group into 1 inch at 100 yds (1 moa) was considered the bees knees - (Something like an up-market Weatherby rifle would be advertised as capable of 1 moa accuracy) Now a reasonable run of the mill Remmy/Ruger/Winny with good ammunition will do that and we expect more of the Tikka/Sako/Blaser quality rifles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONAH898 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Well you learn something new every day, never new that all these new style riles you talk about and how these rounds are brilliant all fire them selves! No mention of the shooter pulling the trigger and some people nite have been shooting for years before all these were available and still manage to shoot good but hay wot do I now I shoot a cz .308 with military 7.62 rounds and have just as much fun but that's just me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Well you learn something new every day, never new that all these new style riles you talk about and how these rounds are brilliant all fire them selves! No mention of the shooter pulling the trigger and some people nite have been shooting for years before all these were available and still manage to shoot good but hay wot do I now I shoot a cz .308 with military 7.62 rounds and have just as much fun but that's just me I may be wrong but I feel that 1066 is just pointing out that without these wildcat afficionados tinkering for all they're worth, experimenting with different combos of powder, primer, case, bullet and primers, seating depths, oal, neck tension, load densities etc then the incredible products now available from the mass producers either wouldn't have come about, or they wouldn't be as near to perfection as is possible to make them,as is the case currently. I liken the benchrest scene to f1 in motorsport. The constant striving for better and better performance in every facet of automotive technology eventually filters down into the average family saloon, ABS for example. I myself shoot a 6mm BR for all my fox control. The fact that myself and this rifle can shoot in the 'ones' off a bench on a good day, doesn't mean that It will out perform more conventional calibres in factory trim for 'realworld' applications. But what it does do is to give me supreme confidence in it and my handloads. And that means everything when 'reaching out' to that problematic charlie at 300yds when out lamping! If I miss then I know that it was my shortcomings and not my equipment, plus shooting golfballs at 400yds is good fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONAH898 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I have no problem with people doin there own ammo in fact find it realy interesting and would like to learn more myself just was the response about me saying wot I have seen then his response "then I woke up" to me shows a person who thinks only people with high end kit can shoot this sort of grouping not the man behind the gun. Just my opinion and don't want this to turn into another argument thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I have no problem with people doin there own ammo in fact find it realy interesting and would like to learn more myself just was the response about me saying wot I have seen then his response "then I woke up" to me shows a person who thinks only people with high end kit can shoot this sort of grouping not the man behind the gun. Just my opinion and don't want this to turn into another argument thread I totally agree, nearly every thread ends up being nothing more than a public slanging match at some stage. That is certainly not my intention nor has/will be. The fact is accuracy by these guys standards doesn't come cheap in time ,money or effort. They're obsessed by shooting a perfect one whole group the same size as the calibre that they're shooting. It may never be done, but that's their goal and good luck to them. Just as I wish a guy using 'bog standard rifle,ammo etc' all the best as well. Regards Remmyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONAH898 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I totally agree, nearly every thread ends up being nothing more than a public slanging match at some stage. That is certainly not my intention nor has/will be. The fact is accuracy by these guys standards doesn't come cheap in time ,money or effort. They're obsessed by shooting a perfect one whole group the same size as the calibre that they're shooting. It may never be done, but that's their goal and good luck to them. Just as I wish a guy using 'bog standard rifle,ammo etc' all the best as well. Regards Remmyman well said mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double10 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 kudos to those who shoot them but tbh to me it looks like it's taking some of the skill out of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Nothing wrong with innovation in the strive for perfection but not my bag (or wallet). Quite happy plink used carts about at 30 yards but if they didn't do what they do (the guys with more money than sense and maybe a bit of ocd) id probably have to settle for 20 yards so far play to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I have no problem with people doin there own ammo in fact find it realy interesting and would like to learn more myself just was the response about me saying wot I have seen then his response "then I woke up" to me shows a person who thinks only people with high end kit can shoot this sort of grouping not the man behind the gun. Just my opinion and don't want this to turn into another argument thread Sorry if you took my post the wrong way Jonah, no offence intended, it's just that I thought you were being serious for a moment when you said that you have seen "guys at the range get that sort of grouping at 3-500 yards with a £300 .308" Now, I'm not saying it couldn't happen, given enough groups over a long enough period it could happen, it would just be a pure fluke. If you could find a £300 .308 rifle to shoot sub 1moa at 500 yards that would be a rare find - 1 moa will give a group size of just over 5 inches at 500 yds, really excellent accuracy but most unlikely to be seen using 7.62 military ammunition. (This is why the bull on the 500 yard NRA target is 10.5 inches) If you were fairly serious about accuracy, you might think about F/TR rifles. A super tuned .308 rifle, superb scope, handcrafted ammunition, and a bi-pod that looks like the legs of a moon lander might give you .25 moa or a group of something like 1.5 inches at 500 yds. Remember, this is pure accuracy, what the rifle/ammunition is capable of, this is before the skill of the shooter and wind problems are added to the mix. If you wanted to stretch the pursuit of accuracy further then you might try F-Class open. Here the rifle is supported with a front rest and rear sandbags, any calibre you want but the "V" bull is only 5 inches at 1000yds. Stretching things to even tighter groups you might be looking at "Benchrest" shooting at anything from 100 -1000 yds with very specialised equipment - Here, to win matches you might be looking at a series of 5 shot groups with averages under .25 moa. Then you get to "rail guns" , as Remmy say, the F1 of precision shooting, looking for every possible technical improvement to give the edge, different rifling forms, twist rates, bedding methods etc etc. At every level of shooting there are others who say "Ahh but that cheating, where the skill in that" The chap who shoots standing freehand with open sights will say it about the guy who shoots laying down. The guy who shoots laying down just using a sling says the same about the guy who uses a bi-pod and a scope etc. There is skill at every level, it's just a different sort of skill - I'll happily shoot a 7.62mm No 4 with aperture sights and a sling at 600 yds, a lever action gallery rifle or a black powder pistol but shotgun shooting, where's the skill in that, you can't miss can you, anywhere within a foot each side of your target will do. We are all shooters and need to support each other - "Rail gun" shooting is a highly specialised shooting sport and requires it's own skills, but then, so too is/was free pistol shooting or even miniature cannon shooting - each to his own but we are all kindred spirits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I don't see it as taking the skill from shooting at all. The group just eliminated the most unprodictible part of the shot. The person holding the gun. Now it's other skills that dictate the results. Has the milatry also developed static fire stations for this same reson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Sorry if you took my post the wrong way Jonah, no offence intended, it's just that I thought you were being serious for a moment when you said that you have seen "guys at the range get that sort of grouping at 3-500 yards with a £300 .308" Now, I'm not saying it couldn't happen, given enough groups over a long enough period it could happen, it would just be a pure fluke. If you could find a £300 .308 rifle to shoot sub 1moa at 500 yards that would be a rare find - 1 moa will give a group size of just over 5 inches at 500 yds, really excellent accuracy but most unlikely to be seen using 7.62 military ammunition. (This is why the bull on the 500 yard NRA target is 10.5 inches) If you were fairly serious about accuracy, you might think about F/TR rifles. A super tuned .308 rifle, superb scope, handcrafted ammunition, and a bi-pod that looks like the legs of a moon lander might give you .25 moa or a group of something like 1.5 inches at 500 yds. Remember, this is pure accuracy, what the rifle/ammunition is capable of, this is before the skill of the shooter and wind problems are added to the mix. If you wanted to stretch the pursuit of accuracy further then you might try F-Class open. Here the rifle is supported with a front rest and rear sandbags, any calibre you want but the "V" bull is only 5 inches at 1000yds. Stretching things to even tighter groups you might be looking at "Benchrest" shooting at anything from 100 -1000 yds with very specialised equipment - Here, to win matches you might be looking at a series of 5 shot groups with averages under .25 moa. Then you get to "rail guns" , as Remmy say, the F1 of precision shooting, looking for every possible technical improvement to give the edge, different rifling forms, twist rates, bedding methods etc etc. At every level of shooting there are others who say "Ahh but that cheating, where the skill in that" The chap who shoots standing freehand with open sights will say it about the guy who shoots laying down. The guy who shoots laying down just using a sling says the same about the guy who uses a bi-pod and a scope etc. There is skill at every level, it's just a different sort of skill - I'll happily shoot a 7.62mm No 4 with aperture sights and a sling at 600 yds, a lever action gallery rifle or a black powder pistol but shotgun shooting, where's the skill in that, you can't miss can you, anywhere within a foot each side of your target will do. We are all shooters and need to support each other - "Rail gun" shooting is a highly specialised shooting sport and requires it's own skills, but then, so too is/was free pistol shooting or even miniature cannon shooting - each to his own but we are all kindred spirits. Terrific post Knowledgable,fair and great 'bridge building' Regards Remmyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONAH898 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Terrific post Knowledgable,fair and great 'bridge building' Regards Remmyman Totally agree and didnt mean to come off moody too, watched a vid on you tube of that rail gun shooting and still thinking on one hand the skill in the set up and loads was awsum but the actual firing seemed abit robotic but was different to watch I must say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONAH898 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Wondered why they were shooting so quick and said on vid they end up using scope just like a spotting scope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon6ppc Posted November 2, 2013 Report Share Posted November 2, 2013 in all aspects of sport its every one to there own i say,them rail guns to me is more a science than shooting skill,i just believe who spends the most money gets the best accuracy,but i have used a 6ppc for around 15 years now for fox and target and to me its accuracy is beyond any other caliber,in bench rest competitions if you don't use one you mite as well go home,on good days the picture is of the groups you can achieve time and time again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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