Underdog Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 If you must leave the mods on then storing them muzzle down on a soft pad (we use carry mat offcuts) will extend your barrel life from crud and condensation falling back down the barrel. I've seen an .17hmr Anschutz barrel with pitting after 500 rounds. Friend who owned it had assumed he could get away with not cleaning it like his old .22. Now, that could have been a steel imperfection making it more prone to corrossion, some particularly nasty ammo residue, moisture or something else. However, for the sake of a £15 boresnake... once condenstion has settled in the bore it will make no difference if the gun is up or down! The big issue is these low intensity cartridges do not generate enough heat on firing. THEY DO release some water vapour on firing that instantly condenses on the rifling on any occasion other than a hot summers day or sustained repeated shots. Hornet suffers the same. 222 does heat the barrel enough to keep condensation off but not always. It is exactly the same as a cold car engine, have you ever noticed all the water vapour coming out the exhaust from cold! I don't know about 17 but small bore rifling is only about .004" deep. The 17 may be finer? U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjm160 Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 I purchased my Sako Quad HMR in April. Was told it wasn't more than six months old and hadn't fired more than a few hundred rounds. The summer and ~1200 rounds later and I couldn't understand why accuracy had gone from 1" at 100 metres to several inches. Local gunshop looked up the serial number for me and found it over 8-years old. Showed me my barrel up against a new one and mine had practically no rifling left. Replaced barrel and all is back to 'normal'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirgoldalot Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 my nephew 7000 rounds cz...it lost zero could not get it to group..gunsmith said worn out.. farmer brought him a replacement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) This takes me back to an earlier post of mine this year a friend of one of my friends (farmer) burns his barrel out on his quad in about 3500 rounds and has a spare barrel ready to change then orders another spare. He tried all the cleaning /non cleaning methods now just changes barrels. Alan Edited December 18, 2013 by Alanl50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) This takes me back to an earlier post of mine this year a friend of one of my friends (farmer) burns his barrel out on his quad in about 3500 rounds and has a spare barrel ready to change then orders another spare. He tried all the cleaning /non cleaning methods now just changes barrels. Alan If my Sako barrel lasted 3500 rounds I would complain vigorously to Sako, unless of course the problem was me! It would be interesting to see a poll of Sako Quad owners and see how many only lasted 3500 rounds, that is an appalling advert for Sako if that is the norm! Edited December 18, 2013 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Every instance above of finished barrels seems to involve third party or lack of proper maintenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delburt0 Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Call me old fashioned but I have always removed the mod after shooting weather it's been day or night just good practise at the end of the day the mod is not part of the gun so should only be put on when using the gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjm160 Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Every instance above of finished barrels seems to involve third party or lack of proper maintenance. Indeed and interesting to hear others have experienced problems after cleaning. I'm not fastidious, but do clean mine regularly. However, the plastic around the cleaning rod is extremely chewed and from some of the posts above, I wonder whether part of the cause of the wear on the rifling. What other options are there to using a rod? Will a pull through readily drop through such a fine bore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal 7888 Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 The way to completely nawse a .17 is to adopt an over zealous cleaning regime but utterly muff the technique. If you hold the rod instead of the rotating handle at the end of the rod when pushing a jag and patch through you can, remarkably quickly, knacker the rifling. The result of such an incorrectly but enthusiasticly executed clean was a loss of accuracy the like of which I have never seen. This rifle would not even group at 20 yards into a four foot square. It resembled the sort of patterning you'd get from a shotgun cartridge only not as tight. When we examined the board more closely you could see that the bullets were tumbling end over end as they left the barrel. As I said, it only took a couple of cleaning sessions carried out in this way to knacker the rifling utterly and completely. Not quite the same as burning one out though. most rods you can buy now have bearinged handles for just this! however a patch will not wear out the rifling by running across it not with it! what probably happened is when it doesn run with the rifling it will get cleaned one side and the other side wont be touched bu the patch! and then this is what wore the barrel out! i have only ever seen one person wear the rifling away in a barrel, this was with JB bore paste (horrible stuff) and he had cut the handle off of his rod, put the remaining rod into a power drill, put the paste on a brass brush and run it up and down the barrel quite a few times! (idiot!) haha If you must leave the mods on then storing them muzzle down on a soft pad (we use carry mat offcuts) will extend your barrel life from crud and condensation falling back down the barrel. I've seen an .17hmr Anschutz barrel with pitting after 500 rounds. Friend who owned it had assumed he could get away with not cleaning it like his old .22. Now, that could have been a steel imperfection making it more prone to corrossion, some particularly nasty ammo residue, moisture or something else. However, for the sake of a £15 boresnake... no one has an excuse that means they "have to" leave moderators on! the way a moderator mucks up a barrel is when its an over barrel model, and its left on the amonia created when the rifle is fired sits in the moderator, it will then sit in the barrel and rust it from the inside out! thats why you see most T8 moderators with rust bubbles and holes in them because it rusts from the inside out! callum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 This takes me back to an earlier post of mine this year a friend of one of my friends (farmer) burns his barrel out on his quad in about 3500 rounds and has a spare barrel ready to change then orders another spare. He tried all the cleaning /non cleaning methods now just changes barrels. Alan That spare is on his ticket is it? Could I ask all the people who have not burned out their barrels because of their cleaning or storing regime if they have done over 8000 rounds through theirs yet please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Cal, he had a bearing handled rod. He just elected to hold the rod and not the handle as he patched it through. He used the same mix as I do, 70% Kroil with 30% Shooters Choice after first patching through with neat Shooters Choice. I always finish up with Isopropyl on a few patches to clean the bore of oil as the Isopropyl will evaporate away quickly, leaving the barrel dry and oil free when stored. I don't think he ever left his moderator on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal 7888 Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 That spare is on his ticket is it? Could I ask all the people who have not burned out their barrels because of their cleaning or storing regime if they have done over 8000 rounds through theirs yet please? exactly what i was thinking! haha Cal, he had a bearing handled rod. He just elected to hold the rod and not the handle as he patched it through. He used the same mix as I do, 70% Kroil with 30% Shooters Choice after first patching through with neat Shooters Choice. I always finish up with Isopropyl on a few patches to clean the bore of oil as the Isopropyl will evaporate away quickly, leaving the barrel dry and oil free when stored. I don't think he ever left his moderator on. the fact that he wore the rifling away with patches and fluid is rediculous! lol you get a sharp knife and rub it on a piece of cotton for a month solid! (not just a 10 minute cleaning session every week or so!) i dont thinks its going to wear the blade away is it! haha also i dont get why people use a potion of different chemicals to clean their rifles or shotguns! thats what the manufacturers are there for, they test everything and find the best blend or solvent and put it in ONE bottle for you to buy and use! get your self a bottle of Boretech Bore cleaner and be done with it! brilliant stuff only attacks the fouling so you can leave it in your barrel without worrying and also it creates a film inside to stop corrosion during storage! SIMPLES!! callum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 A cloth patch isn't likely to damage the rifling, but a incorrectly used metal jag likely could. As for bore cleaning and conditioning, the combo of kroil and shooters choice is one that quite a few of us, including target shooters use to good effect. I have no need to try bore foams or anything else as this works fine for me. Unless of course you're offering a free sample? See you on the new year when I come and get the trigger done Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 If my Sako barrel lasted 3500 rounds I would complain vigorously to Sako, unless of course the problem was me! It would be interesting to see a poll of Sako Quad owners and see how many only lasted 3500 rounds, that is an appalling advert for Sako if that is the norm! I too find these stories extremely difficult to believe. I'm not suggesting that people aren't being honest but 3.5k rounds from what is a pretty mild cartridge by today's standards is ridiculous. Possibly a problem with the barrel steel, perhaps? The other thing is that even if the rifling is very shallow it doesn't necassarily mean that it will cause major accuracy problems. If the rifling is capable of spinning the bullet then that should be fine. If, on the other hand, something is causing wear to the muzzle-crown then that is a differemnt matter. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 A cloth patch isn't likely to damage the rifling, but a incorrectly used metal jag likely could. As for bore cleaning and conditioning, the combo of kroil and shooters choice is one that quite a few of us, including target shooters use to good effect. I have no need to try bore foams or anything else as this works fine for me. Unless of course you're offering a free sample? See you on the new year when I come and get the trigger done Cal I would doubt it. A steel one, possibly, but jags are generally made of brass which is no where near the hardness of steel. Even then, mild steel wouldn't damage a steel rifle barrel very quickly as the latter is much harder. There are, after all, steel jacketed bullets around which don't wreck barrels. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 I would doubt it. A steel one, possibly, but jags are generally made of brass which is no where near the hardness of steel. Even then, mild steel wouldn't damage a steel rifle barrel very quickly as the latter is much harder. There are, after all, steel jacketed bullets around which don't wreck barrels. J. Just consider what a lead lap can do to steel, muck can replace the compound used so what if its far softer still. Mild steel will wreck chrome moly BTW if used aggressively, you can take relative hardness too far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 If my Sako barrel lasted 3500 rounds I would complain vigorously to Sako, unless of course the problem was me! It would be interesting to see a poll of Sako Quad owners and see how many only lasted 3500 rounds, that is an appalling advert for Sako if that is the norm! I totally understand what your saying when first told this I thought "what a load of bow locks " he said he first stuffed a his CZ and if I remember right Edgar bro wouldn't play ball, he changed to his Sako quad and just changes the barrel as required, I knows he shoot one hecka of lot when out - lots and it hot barrel time no waiting to cool down which is what I'm guessing causes the early demise of his barrels, the guy now has over 4000 acres and shoots it all, I wont be too happy if I'm required to re-barrel or replace my CZ after 3500 rounds of HMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted December 23, 2013 Report Share Posted December 23, 2013 at getting on for £1000 worth of ammo at 3500-400 rounds, I wouldn't really be that worried about wearing out a £300 gun. Barrels are consumables sadly and this is cheap shooting! True looking at it like that !!! apart mine was a tad more than £300.00, so Ill come to you when needing a new one. lol I suppose something has to wear and it will a good excuse to my wife " my barrel worn out and I need a new rifle" lol New CZ barrels are supposed to be around the £120.00 region, but a new rifle sounds good to me lol Alan Happy Christmas everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted December 24, 2013 Report Share Posted December 24, 2013 If anyone else can convincingly explain how a cz 17 can go from being pin accurate to utter garbage within five weeks without the jag or an incorrect approach to rodding the bore being responsible I'm open to offers. The rifle suffered a gradual decline in accuracy getting more inaccurate every time the bore was cleaned in this way. As it got worse so the cleaning regime became longer and longer in an attempt to get the rifle back on. We both used the same rods, jags and patches the only difference being that I held the handle letting the rod rotate naturally, whilst he held the rod so that the jag could not turn in the rifling. I'm open to explanations other than the obvious, but I tend to apply Occums razor to most problems like this one. The obvious answer being the most likely candidate. Especially when you saw what his rod looked like compared to mine, all chewed at the end and in odd places along the length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 24, 2013 Report Share Posted December 24, 2013 If anyone else can convincingly explain how a cz 17 can go from being pin accurate to utter garbage within five weeks without the jag or an incorrect approach to rodding the bore being responsible I'm open to offers. The rifle suffered a gradual decline in accuracy getting more inaccurate every time the bore was cleaned in this way. As it got worse so the cleaning regime became longer and longer in an attempt to get the rifle back on. We both used the same rods, jags and patches the only difference being that I held the handle letting the rod rotate naturally, whilst he held the rod so that the jag could not turn in the rifling. I'm open to explanations other than the obvious, but I tend to apply Occums razor to most problems like this one. The obvious answer being the most likely candidate. Especially when you saw what his rod looked like compared to mine, all chewed at the end and in odd places along the length. Are you serious, didn't it occur to anyone to stop and access the situation if that was the case, if every time I cleaned my rifle it got worse and I chewed up the rod then I would stop. You make no mention of brushes, frankly this is daft, I fail to see how the correct size jag and rod with a patch could destroy a barrel in 5 weeks. The fact is I have cleaned many a rifle, many a time, holding the rod at times rather than handle anyway, that doesn't destroy a barrel, it just pushes the brush/patch clean through without following the twist of the rifling, and it certainly will not damage the crown. A patch/brush will do little or no harm to a barrel/rifling doing this, and there is no reason why it should chew up the rod end or length either. Hell, shotguns are cleaned this way anyway, rod/brush/patch right through, no twisting handle, and people can get seriously vigorous with that, ok, no rifling, but it doesn't destroy or remove all the barrel so what makes you think it would destroy the barrel/rifling on a rifle....and in 5 weeks......with a PATCH!? I make no suggestion that incorrect cleaning (make that deliberate incompetence/negligence) could not make a mess of a barrel, but the simple act of holding the rod will not in my experience. This doesn't add up, I think another avenue needs exploring! What does the bore/crown actually look like, no mention has been made of this? ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted December 24, 2013 Report Share Posted December 24, 2013 It's not like I was beside him whilst he was cleaning it every time. I just witnessed the last clean he did, just prior to the worst group at 40 yards I've ever seen with a rifle. It's then I noticed how he held the rod, not the handle. I asked him if that's the way he cleaned every time and he said it was. I pointed out that you held the handle and the rod and jag rotated in the bore rather than just pushing it up and down. Nothing other than a jag was used, as far as I know he doesn't even own a brush. Same jag, same patches, new rod and new rifle and no more problems now he holds the handle not the rod. Don't know what the Crown looked like as the old rifle got chopped in, pity whoever bought that. Dekers, don't get so exercised, it's Christmas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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