Gun for fox and muntjac - advice needed

[Fisheruk]

.223 does the job for me.

[Bewsher500]

I use a .222 for roe and it drops them in their tracks, wouldn't consider anything else for roe north of the border

Muntjac are smaller but that does not mean you want to be treating them as weaker.

 

Would I shoot them with a .222?

Yes. all day

 

But as they can often run for 30, 40 50+ yds with 6.5, 308 and 270 holes in their chests (which on inspection shows holes in heart and massive internal damage)

As a novice (which by asking the question here and the details you give I am guessing is a fair comment) I would not be recommending a minimum calibre especially given their body size and habitat (they can be lost a lot easier without a dog)

50yds into low brush and undergrowth and you are going to have a very bad day looking for something

 

you could use any deer legal .22 CF but why bother aiming at the bottom end of the scale

when the .243 offers a much wider bullet range (55-100gr)

is generally regarded as the perfect deer/fox cartridge by most FEO's

produces a MUCH higher energy at impact

is so readily available in cheap formats

and is only marginally more expensive to feed. (factory or otherwise)

 

then if you want to stretch your legs and take a day on the fallow/hinds etc at some point you are shooting a gun you know and trust and not an estate rifle

 

 

I would not buy a cheaper cartridge to shoot (i.e 223) at the expense of humane shooting. if that is the case shoot less paper or start reloading £50 in hardware and you can produce very accurate ammo

[kent]

Just remember you cant scare stuff to death with what is stamped on the side of your barrel. It takes a bullet in the right place, there is an argument for .375 H&H on small deer but a bullet through the heart is a bullet through the heart and you can only expend so much energy inside a beast, the rest is carried into the backstop.

[kent]

Ludicrous isn't it? Failing to step down from the roe rated calibre to something perfectly capable for the two 'dinkies' is downright stupid. Anyone who thinks that a 50 grain bullet packing some 850 ft/lbs at the muzzle - or even a tad less - is ineffective is simply ballistically ignorant, misguided or has an hidden agenda - probably the same people who decided on the badger cull calibre requisites.

 

This from someone who no longer has any interest in stalking and therefore having no axe to grind.

yes its people in offices reading stuff by other people in other offices. No account is taken of the most important factor which is the shooter. This latter point is why I never supported the changes in England and Wales there are some seriously poor ones. Its a fair betting .22 Hornet and .222 rem have killed more Badgers in the uk than all the others put together through the dates of use alone

[dadioles]

Many thanks to all of you for such excellent and well thought out replies.

I regularly see muntjac when out after rabbits and they are seldom more than 100 yards away, often much closer.

Foxes are not something I 'go after' other than close urban fox with the .22lr. Again, I frequently see them through the night vision at 80 to 200 yards but I do not feel equipped do deal with them humanely at that distance.

Last night I was endlessly barked at by another munjac which I watched for 10 minutes or more just 30 yards away, damned nuisance, spooked the rabbits and annoyed the neighbours. It would have been delicious!

 

In Cambridgeshire the FEO comes out for a visit at renewal so I shall have a chat.

 

My feeling, and it is only based on reading and not first hand knowledge, is to lean towards the .223 and it seems 50-55g with 1:8 twist is sensible (don't you just hate people who regurgitate what they read). The cost difference between .223 and .243 is not enough to be a deal breaker and I do see the point that .243 would be more versatile.

 

I cannot help thinking, however, that for fox and muntjac, in my circumstances, .223 is a big step up from .17hmr and I know how devastating that tiny bullet can be. Muntjac is a tough animal with a tough hide but I am an accurate and disciplined shooter and .223 with a suitable bullet would be adequate. I do not shoot with a dog and would expect to drop the deer on the spot. My rabbits are mostly head shot out to 100 yards, that is a smaller target than neck shooting a muntjac, or am I talking out of my bottom?

 

Should the need arise for larger deer, and I am not too sure if I would ever go that route, I could look for .243 .308 or whatever is most suitable for that sized animal.

 

I am also very grateful to those of you that have offered to let me tag along and get a first hand idea of the different calibres before making a final decision. I may be in touch, it is appreciated.

 

Let's see what the feo has to say, Cambridgeshire have always been pretty fair and good to deal with. Oh, and finally, the reason I only asked about calibre and not scope is because I know a lot about scopes but do not have the experience that some of you have with centrefire.

[strangford wildfowler]

30-06 would kill both efficiently

[henry d]

I put 243/6mm at the start but I don`t own either calibre. I started off with a fair sized permission that had just roe and fox, so the .222 was gun of choice, I did not see any chance of shooting anything larger. Then I got several larger farms to shoot over with fallow on them so I got a 6.5x55. I now also help cull reds and roe so the 6.5/.222 works well here.

Had I gone for .243/6mm I would have been OK with one rifle. It is however fun to have these two

[Bewsher500]

Its a fair betting .22 Hornet and .222 rem have killed more Badgers in the uk than all the others put together through the dates of use alone

Its a fair bet the .22lr has killed thousands of stags in the highlands but you wouldn't recommend it would you?

 

there was debate on .243 for red stags on another site which was no different, plenty people do. even the guys I know personally who choose it out of preference will tell you stories when away from the crowds about the one that took three shots despite having a hole in its x,y,z....

 

sure a small calibre can do the job, but you are relying on all things going the right way on the day with little margin for error

it means you are putting pressure on the shooter to shoot head and neck despite it not being the best option

 

only when you have shot enough to see something go wrong and the benefit of experience that this ridiculous calibre/species argument sounds so stupid

ask the guys that shoot sika for a living what they choose. bet you the majority are not .243 even though legal

 

its no fun dragging deer through the needle straw of a sitka plantation.

[kent]

Its a fair bet the .22lr has killed thousands of stags in the highlands but you wouldn't recommend it would you?

 

there was debate on .243 for red stags on another site which was no different, plenty people do. even the guys I know personally who choose it out of preference will tell you stories when away from the crowds about the one that took three shots despite having a hole in its x,y,z....

 

sure a small calibre can do the job, but you are relying on all things going the right way on the day with little margin for error

it means you are putting pressure on the shooter to shoot head and neck despite it not being the best option

 

only when you have shot enough to see something go wrong and the benefit of experience that this ridiculous calibre/species argument sounds so stupid

ask the guys that shoot sika for a living what they choose. bet you the majority are not .243 even though legal

 

its no fun dragging deer through the needle straw of a sitka plantation.

Funny I live slap bang in Sika central and my biggest gun these days is .243 win, sold everything bigger. There are few placements on quarry the size of a badger were .222 or .22 Hornet wouldn't work at the 80 yards ? the cullers were issued with. If you over calibre enough you can gut shoot but it is still not instant or even fast just faster. I beg the question is it not better to place your shot better and use some disapline? Lighter calibre rifles are easier to shoot well with that's just physics in action.

Careful with dogs on Munties, have never stalked them but I have seen what they can do to a dog and its not good

[al4x]

I've yet to find one live but they can run with amazing damage, I found one with lungs gone and a hole big enough the rumen fell out. It was shot while crossing stubble and I think that meant it was primed to run, that did 100 yards into a block of maize at last light. They are great to stalk but I seem to go through periods of them dropping on the spot or just running with no real reason shot placement wise

[kent]

A male deer around its Rut is full of testosterone this will fuel it on a run, if the deer is aware of your presence or suspects something is amiss it is again more likely to run. Killing more than one from a group and the subsequent ones can be expected to run.

Fully relaxed and unaware deer very rarely run when hit with good classic placement and when they do run its rarely very far. Having seen just how damaged some of the running ones are on recovery its hard to figure how they took a single step but they can, only paralyzing them with a spine shot truly stops them in their tracks but beware as clipping the spine and dropping one (through stunning it) only lasts so long if it not dead these can and will recover from a seemingly dead state and run like heck, to the extent I witnessed one guy loose his knife ( a better example of why to always use the blink test cannot be found)